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A Spanish 2-Bit

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BillSnyder's Avatar
778 Posts
 Posted 07/22/2013  4:44 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add BillSnyder to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers

This 6.84 gram silver piece has apparently been cut from an 8 Reals.

Spain, Mexico, Peru, Chile, or ?

Also, other such pieces that I have seen have been cut in 'pie' shapes. Is this shape unusual?


Thanks,
Bill



A-Spanish-2-Bit

A-Spanish-2-Bit
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publius's Avatar
United States
807 Posts
 Posted 07/22/2013  5:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add publius to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Looks to me much more like a 2-reales cob, struck between dies for a larger denomination, than a cutout.
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 Posted 07/22/2013  5:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BillSnyder to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

An interesting thought!


Bill
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 Posted 07/22/2013  9:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very curious piece... Not cut down, and not struck from dies for a larger denomination (say, 4R) - note that there a clear Arabic "2" for the denomination to the right of the shield.

The cross style automatically excludes Mexico... and by overall style, it's definitely not Potosi either. It has a Hapsburg shield, but WITHOUT the Portugal escutcheon, so it's not a post-1600 homeland Spain issue... and I can say that by style, it isn't any pre-1600 homeland Spain mint, either.

That said, the two possibilities here are some sort of oddly well-executed/full weight contemporary counterfeit... or, more likely I think, Colombia aka "Nuevo Reino" (Bogota mint), 1630s-40s... which would be a VERY nice stumble-upon!! Several characteristics support the latter... going to consult someone now about this piece.
Edited by realeswatcher
07/22/2013 9:50 pm
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Pheroow's Avatar
United Arab Emirates
283 Posts
 Posted 07/23/2013  02:05 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Pheroow to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is a thoughtful piece :D
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BillSnyder's Avatar
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 Posted 07/23/2013  09:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BillSnyder to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Perhaps a scan from a different angle will be helpful -


A-Spanish-2-Bit
Edited by BillSnyder
07/23/2013 09:36 am
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80 Posts
 Posted 07/23/2013  1:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mikelley to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Look at the position of the castles and lions. They seem reversed from all I have seen of the 2 real pieces and the lions are seen facing in the proper direction so not a transposition. Possibly a Felipe II style from one of the Spanish mints?

Mike
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 Posted 07/23/2013  2:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Look at the position of the castles and lions. They seem reversed from all I have seen of the 2 real pieces and the lions are seen facing in the proper direction so not a transposition. Possibly a Felipe II style from one of the Spanish mints?

I assume the idea of pre-1597 (when they introduced the OMNIVM style and added the Portugal escutcheon) mainland Spain mint derives from there being no Portugal? Like I said, by style, it's definitely not any of those pre-OMNIVM types.

Regarding the lions/castles... one note: Cob people generally DO call the cross side "transposed" lions/castles by rule... Whether that's perfectly linguistically correct... eh. Nonetheless, that is what "they" call it, not a reversal (which I believe would be reserved for a mirroring error - which would be bizarre since it would involve a backwards-made punch).

But, yeah, the lions and castles switched places here... The most prevalent examples of this effect are Potosi cobs of the early 1620s. On those, the cross side can be transposed, the lions/castles within the upper left quadrant of the SHIELD can be switched... the shield's whole upper left quadrant can be switched with the whole upper RIGHT quadrant... This is mostly seen on the 8R and 4R, but I'm sure I've seen a few 2R showing this effect.

Aside from those, there isn't any other mint/date range where you'd say transposed detail is commonly seen in any way... EXCEPT for 1620s-40s Bogota. Of course, most people aren't familiar with this because Nuevo Reino macuquinas are SO scarce in general that most people don't even know they exist.

I showed this piece to Herman Blanton, noted collector of/expert on the Colombian cob issues (see his website primarily devoted to this topic, macuquina.com). He confirms:


Quote:
There is no doubt about it being Santa Fe.
2R, I feel it is assayer P 1627.
But it could range 1627-29. But then there is an assayer A that might match in which case 1632-42.
So there is no doubt it is Santa Fe and a little mystery about the assayer and date, but I could argue it is precisely 1627.

Very nice example of the type... And again, as I assume this was picked up just as a generic 2R with no attribution... great accidental cherrypick!!
Edited by realeswatcher
07/23/2013 3:02 pm
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MathieuMa's Avatar
France
1591 Posts
 Posted 07/24/2013  04:12 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MathieuMa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wow, this is a really impressive 2 reales.
I felt something wrong when I saw it, the style is not what I commonly see either.
On the left of the shield, you can see a part of the mint mark or essayer (or both) - near the horizontal line of the upper small cross, and the middle bottom bar.
In any case, congratulation for this great find :)
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publius's Avatar
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807 Posts
 Posted 07/24/2013  04:16 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add publius to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Nuevo Reino de Granada will get you every time. Up there in their isolation, they just didn't do things the normal way!
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