2013 Ae Proof 1-Oz Vs 2013 Ab Proof 1-Oz Vs Ab Proof Gold REV

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ctguy Valued Member United States 95 Posts	Posted 08/03/2013 09:43 am Good morning, Seeking opinions, I want to buy one of these but I'm not sure which one, I'm at looking holding long term with numismatic and intrinsic value increase preferably in that order. Only 1 in the budget and if the 2013 American Buffalo Gold Reverse Proof Price to be determined if far out of the range of the other two then it maybe dropped. First the specs from the US Mint. 1) 2013 American Buffalo One Ounce Gold Proof Coin (BU7)$1,690.00 Mintage Limit: None Product Limit: None / Denomination $50 / Composition 99.99% Gold / Weight 1.0000 troy ounce The American Buffalo One Ounce Gold Proof Coin is the first 24-karat gold proof coin ever struck by the United States Mint and is the collector version of the official United States Mint American Buffalo Gold Bullion Coin. Containing one ounce of .9999 fine 24-karat gold, these lustrous coins are among the world's purest gold coins. The coin is presented in an elegant hardwood box with a matte finish and a leather-like inset. It is accompanied by a certificate of authenticity. 2) 2013 American Buffalo One Ounce Gold Reverse Proof Coin Price to be determined.Mintage Limit: None Product Limit: None Denomination $50 / Composition 99.99% Gold / Weight 1.0000 troy ounce Celebrate the centennial anniversary of one of the United States Mint's most beloved designs -- the American Buffalo. Designed by James Earle Fraser, a student of the legendary sculptor Augustus Saint-Gaudens, the American Buffalo design was first featured on the Type I Buffalo (or Indian Head) nickel in 1913. This legendary design remained in use on the nickel for 25 years. The design was given new life when it was used on the American Buffalo One Ounce Gold Proof Coin in 2006, the first 24-karat gold proof coin ever struck by the United States Mint. We celebrate this 100-year milestone with an American Buffalo One Ounce Gold Reverse Proof Coin. Reversing the mirror-like background finish of the traditional proof coin and applying it instead to the design elements of the coin achieves a magnificent visual contrast against the uniquely frosted background. This anniversary edition captures the beauty of coin design and the modernization of coin production over the last 100 years in one magnificent showpiece. 3) 2013 American Eagle One Ounce Gold Proof Coin $1,660.00 Mintage Limit: 40,000 / Product Limit: 20,000 / Denomination $50 / Composition 91.67% Gold 3.0% Silver Balance Copper Product Limit -- 20,000 The American Eagle Gold Proof Coins are collector versions of the official United States Mint American Eagle Gold Bullion Coins and are available in limited mintages in four sizes -- one ounce, one-half ounce, one-quarter ounce, and one-tenth ounce, as well as a four-coin set containing one coin in each size. The 2013 American Eagle One Ounce Gold Proof Coin is packaged in a velvet, satin-lined presentation case and is accompanied by a Certificate of Authenticity. It looks like they are all W mint mark: 1) Do you thing the 2013 American Buffalo One Ounce Gold Reverse Proof Coin would have more numismatic value than the other two (the AE)is not 99.99% gold / how much or little does that small amount of gold really matter, the Buffalo's would be considered true gold at 99.99% for lack of a better way to put it? 2) How do you think mintage limit: 40,000 product limit: 20,000 for the AE comes into play when the AE is only 91.67% Gold. 3) Do you think things like Reverse Proof Coins are just mint gimmicks for novice investors? 4) What else have I forgotten missed or to novice to see in this picture? I'm a new investor and just learning to baby step my way into this but baby stepping while learning how to read and interpret the Cumulative Numismatic Sales Figures. I know a little knowledge is a dangerous thing! I have a bunch of the puzzle pieces rattling around in my head but need help putting them together What is / can a relationship be explained between numerstic value Cumulative Numismatic Sales Figures and Mintage Limit Product Limits or is it simple supply and demand in the end? My angle is looking to buy and hold long term hoping that numerstic value increases along with or faster than intrinsic value. The reason I'm looking at the US Mint is as a new buyer I'm not familiar with who to trust buying from and not buying from along with quality and authenticity of the product being purchased. I know I'm probably paying too much going through the mint, but if anyone ever heard of Bill Savitt from Hartford CT he was a very successful and famous jeweler and his motto was PMOG = Peace of mind guaranteed, guess that's what I get from the mint being a new investor. If I did not confuse anyone and my post resembled some sort of sense I'm looking forward to see what others have to say. -DJ Report this Post to the Staff

Bizybackson Pillar of the Community United States 1817 Posts	Posted 08/04/2013 12:30 am If you can only afford one of the three, BV1 is the obvious choice. Since it's a special coin, it might be over subscribed, but will hold its value even if 100,000 coins are issued. The 2009 UHR AGE is still way above issue price and over 100,000 were sold. So I expect the RPB to follow suit. The unknown is BU7, collectors might be in your situation, ie, can only afford one or the other, so BU7 becomes underwhelmingly sold, leading to a low mintage sleeper coin. This is what happened the 2012 proof AB. As for the proof AGE 1oz. unless the date is special to you in some way -- major birthday, anniversary, et. al, a 1/2 or 1/4oz. fractional proof may do just as well as the full ouncer, and they almost always have a lower mintage than either the 1oz or the 1/10th. The gold Buffalo is a more elegant coin and with its higher purity % and $30 difference, I'd go with either BV1 or BU7 every time over the proof AGE. Edited by Bizybackson 08/04/2013 12:31 am Report this Post to the Staff
PennyPiggy Valued Member United States 317 Posts	Posted 08/04/2013 09:53 am Kinda surprised you didn't add the 2013 platinum proof to the list. This year's design is wow. But yeah there should be a nice premium added to the reverse buffalo in years to come. I say this from looking at the premium placed on the 2001 silver buffalo commemorative. There is just high demand for the design. There is also a big premium attached to the 2009 UHR that Bizy mentioned. Id rather take the money and buy 10 5 oz circulated ATBs from the mint though. I believe silver will eventually go back to the high 30's maybe beyond that before the series is over. I also like the idea of having 10 chances at getting one of the coins graded as a 70 down the road so I'll really get some value for my investment. Right now I just think the limited minted 25k 5 oz ATBs are the way to go. But I'd go with the reverse as the 1st option, the thing is and this might be oversimplifying the decision but if gold and silver prices should drop like a rock and I'm saying if they do, I'm thinking the reverse would still hold much more of a premium over your other options. And I'm in the same boat as you, I'm getting my stuff from the Mint or the BEP store or I'm not paying a high premium for my coins. I don't have the knowledge or skill as many of the posters on this site do but I want access to what might develop into good long term investment so I use those sources. Ive been learning a lot from the good folks on this site since joining but I still do not feel comfortable shelling out hundreds of dollars in something that might not be exactly what I hoped for. What bothers me is that I'll see regulars here that I read and I see they have a lot of knowledge on something but even they will ask the board do you think this is a fake or is there something wrong with a particular coin. So I'm thinking "if they have a problem with certain coins with the experience and all, I'm really in trouble!!" I also thought I would be safe if I just bought graded coins, but now I'm reading that there are fake holders or people are manipulating the numbers on the holders or doing something to them. ugh, I'm just keeping to the fore mentioned sources and keeping things simple. Anyway, Good luck. Report this Post to the Staff
basebal21 Bedrock of the Community 13014 Posts	Posted 08/04/2013 1:09 pm Quote: I also thought I would be safe if I just bought graded coins, but now I'm reading that there are fake holders or people are manipulating the numbers on the holders or doing something to them. The fakes really arent as bad as they get made out to be on internet boards especially for graded coins. As long as you arent scouring the corners of the internet for the cheapest price ever your chances of running into a fake slab are minimal. Yes coins are faked and some are faked a lot, but keep in mind the reason why you hear about the fake stories a lot are because those are the things that bring people to a site to discuss. The run of the mill every day sale isn't the exciting thing that gets people talking usually so fakes get disproportionally represented Report this Post to the Staff
PennyPiggy Valued Member United States 317 Posts	Posted 08/05/2013 12:23 pm Anyone interested in buying the aforementioned coins should look at some market prices before buying those coins anyway because the mint will price its gold according to the gold prices set by the market. Anyway, Bloomberg just released an article "Gold Bulls Cut Wagers on Signs U.S. Growth Quickens" saying that the price of gold is suppose to go down this week. And since gold is hovering around 1300 an ounce there is a good chance that if people wait. gold might get a lower bracket price going to 1250 but we'll see how the mint prices its gold products in the next 2 weeks. So pay attention to the spot price if you're considering buying the reverse buffalo because you could get the coin at a discount. Report this Post to the Staff
SA4H Pillar of the Community United States 2764 Posts	Posted 08/05/2013 3:09 pm Bizybackson had made some good points. I agree with him that the Buffalo Reverse Proof is the top choice. You can see the other thread about the Buffalo Reverse Proof here: https://goccf.com/t/154930 Report this Post to the Staff
PennyPiggy Valued Member United States 317 Posts	Posted 08/05/2013 3:54 pm You make sense basebal on this issue saying don't judge all the apples based on one bad apple, but I'm not only referring to the fakes. Even when I look at a graded coin there is suspicion. How many times have you looked at a graded coin and said there is no why that coin in that holder deserves that rating? My point is: even the grading services lack consistency. One major grading firm might grade the same coin differently than another firm. Or the firms themselves grade a coin differently a few years later. Or I remember hearing not too long ago about either pcgs or ngc having a harsh grading on a particular series about 10-20 years but recently have been loosing up their standards on that particular series so people have been encouraged to resubmit their coins. I don't know I was watching something about that a few months ago. But anyway, the grading firms just seem wishy washy to me, lol. For a $50 coin if something didn't work out id be a little upset, but if I put down 1oz gold or 1oz platinum money on the table for a coin . . . .I'm questioning everyone and everything. Now that's just me. but I'll leave those type of purchases up to more experienced people, I like my under 200 atbs from the mint for now. Report this Post to the Staff
basebal21 Bedrock of the Community 13014 Posts	Posted 08/05/2013 9:28 pm Quote: How many times have you looked at a graded coin and said there is no why that coin in that holder deserves that rating? It really depends on the coin and the series. Even if I see a couple I dont like, its important to keep it in perspective that theyve likely done a couple thousand of them. It also depends on the company, to me NGC is the one with the most inconsistency but it is run by humans so perfection cant be expected. That said theres nothing wrong with passing on a coin you dont agree with for one you do or one you like better. Quote: Or I remember hearing not too long ago about either pcgs or ngc having a harsh grading on a particular series about 10-20 years but recently have been loosing up their standards on that particular series so people have been encouraged to resubmit their coins. I don't know I was watching something about that a few months ago. Thats kind of turned into the numismatic version of a tall tail. The rumor is that their older holders like the PCGS green label ones would upgrade if resubmitted today. That was true for some of them and the majority of those have already been resubmitted for the higher grade. Where the tall tale comes in is that a lot of people treat the old holders like theyre a grade higher just because theyre the old holder. Dealers like it because they can ask more for those coins and the TPGs like it because it gets them resubmissions which means more business. The reality is more along the lines that some could grade higher, but its no where near as automatic as the rumor would lead you to believe. Quote: But anyway, the grading firms just seem wishy washy to me Its really just no different than anything else in life. Real estate, cars, companies, antiques ect, theyre all based off of 3rd party assessments. Thats all the TPGs do for coins. Unlike the dealer trying to sell it they have no financial interest in pumping up the grade, in fact you could argue the opposite since it puts them on the hook for more money if a buy back situation happens. Of course this only applies to the legitimate TPGs not the basement slabbers which are basically in business to help people take advantage of new or unknowing collectors. Edited by basebal21 08/05/2013 9:29 pm Report this Post to the Staff
basebal21 Bedrock of the Community 13014 Posts	Posted 08/05/2013 9:37 pm Quote: Do you think things like Reverse Proof Coins are just mint gimmicks for novice investors? The Reverse Proof Silver ASEs have been some of the better performing coins in-terms of price appreciation. Last I checked the 2011 RP was selling for more on its own than the set sold from the mint. Its definitely not something shunned by serious collectors, and have been gorgeous so far in my opinion. Quote: What is / can a relationship be explained between numerstic value Cumulative Numismatic Sales Figures and Mintage Limit Product Limits or is it simple supply and demand in the end? In the end its all supply and demand. Lower mintages give you a better chance of supply being over taken by demand but its not an assurance. If more people want it or enough people want it that they get hard to find the price generally goes up, if not they stay flat or even fall in price sometimes. Report this Post to the Staff
Bizybackson Pillar of the Community United States 1817 Posts	Posted 08/05/2013 11:29 pm It is also a question of ready money for the average collector. $1,690.00 is going to price out at least 98% of the collectors that want one, so the RP Buffalo has a very good chance of being cornered by the big boys with the deep pockets, the corporate coin companies will buy up at least 85-90% of however many will be sold, so rapid price maturity will happen on this coin. I suspect that the Mint will take their time fulfilling the one-off orders, the big boys will get their coins graded and televised before any of us will see ours. So even if AU takes a hit by November 1st to $1,000, the coin would be worth twice that because of the mass marketers and perhaps to $2,500-$3,000 by year's end in a PR70 holder, because the big boys have enough inventory to call the shots and the average collector tends to have other summer activity other than coins, so it adds up to a no-lose situation for BV1. Report this Post to the Staff
arnoldous New Member United States 3 Posts	Posted 08/06/2013 02:37 am What! is beautiful and interesting information about ab proof Gold Rev. Report this Post to the Staff
SA4H Pillar of the Community United States 2764 Posts	Posted 08/06/2013 5:16 pm I totally agree with Bizybackson. However, the market price after the release period (once all orders are fulfilled), will tend to soften a bit and then it will start to pick up in about 1 year cycle. Just look at the historical trend for the 2009 UHR gold coin and the 2001 Silver Buffalo Commemorative coins. The buffalo design is VERY popular among serious collectors (that's why in 2oo6 the USMint started the 1oz 99.99 pure Gold Buffalo series). Report this Post to the Staff
ctguy Valued Member United States 95 Posts	Posted 08/09/2013 10:04 am Hi all, Took my chances, pulled the trigger purchased one BV1 and one BU7 I'm hoping Bizybackson shines through and the BU7 is a low mintage sleeper coin, if not I'm happy with my purchase anyway. I think the price will drop, but as someone I know once told me ask any expert what they think about any market and they will tell you "could go up may go down" It's a buy and hold for me. I do have a question I read someplace that to have the coin graded the case must remain unopened why? Report this Post to the Staff
basebal21 Bedrock of the Community 13014 Posts	Posted 08/09/2013 4:00 pm Quote: I do have a question I read someplace that to have the coin graded the case must remain unopened why? Thats only if you want the FS/ER label from PCGS/NGC. For those if you ship after the first 30 days you have to have a sealed box from the mint you send in. If you arent worried about that it doesn't matter. They actually prefer you remove the coins for non fs/er submissions and put them in a mylar flip. Report this Post to the Staff
ctguy Valued Member United States 95 Posts	Posted 08/10/2013 07:55 am Quote: Thats only if you want the FS/ER label from PCGS/NGC. For those if you ship after the first 30 days you have to have a sealed box from the mint you send in. basebal21, How desirable is doing this and does it really equate to a huge increase in value? I'm new so learning the ropes to doing this plus the expense plus having to find a LCD to work with to submit plus competeting with all the experienced folks who have this down I don't sell on the bay so that's all something new to me. I just question for a newbie is it worth it, I don't intend to flip the coin just hold for value. -DJ Report this Post to the Staff
tpg22 Pillar of the Community United States 919 Posts	Posted 08/10/2013 10:21 am It will be hard for the little guy to do this. I bought my reverse proof the day they went on sale (8/8) and the shipping date is 9/8. That puts it right on the edge of the 30 day requirement for ER/FS. I'm sure the big houses are getting theirs much quicker. Report this Post to the Staff
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2013 Ae Proof 1-Oz Vs 2013 Ab Proof 1-Oz Vs Ab Proof Gold Rev