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 Replies: 11 / Views: 1,890 |
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Moderator
 Australia
16867 Posts |
Hi all, Just today I purchased from a local dealer this Balbinus denarius. It was going cheap, mainly because it was described as a "contemporary plated fouree". Even a fouree is good enough for me to cross him off my one-from-every-emperor list. The type is Sear 8491, reverse Victory standing, VICTORIA AVGG. Except on mine they've forgotten the second A, making it VICTORI AVGG.  Now, looking up this particular "error", I found this one on FORVM. The exact same coin crops up elsewhere on the Internet, such as here on CoinProject. No-one mentions that this example is or might be a fouree. My trouble is, I'm seeing a die match between the FORVM coin and my coin. Particularly, the little notch before the V attached to the rim that looks almost like our missing "A" has drifted over to the opposite side of the coin, and the dot below Victory. Now, Balbinus is a pretty scarce guy; there probably was only one (if that) genuine die with the missing "A" ever made, so it shouldn't be surprising to find a die match... for genuine coins. So, my dilemma is twofold. Is my coin really a fouree, or is it just a well-worn and badly cleaned original coin? I have to say it doesn't really look like one to me, but I've handled very few confirmed fourees in person. Or is it, maybe, a more modern fake? Second, if my coin is a genuine fouree, how likely is it that the "other" coin is therefore in fact a fouree too? I really don't know any statistics on finding die-matches between fourees and genuine coins. Does anyone have any insight into this? Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Moderator
United States
23731 Posts |
Nothing nasty about this coin. I like it. IMO this is not a fouree but an orginal issue, looking at the other coins it is a die match.
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21788 Posts |
Of Roman manufacture or not, I think I can see a breech in the plating, on the edge, near "CA".
The official mints were sometimes a little naughty, and issued plated coins. Did this happen during the time of Balbinus' reign?
It is possible to strike plated coins, as well as coins of good metal, with the same dies. It is also possible to strike base metal cores with genuine dies, then plate them. Perhaps that is what happened here.
If it has a copper core, it should weigh 15% to 20% less, if it has a lead core, it should it should weigh 30% to 35% more, and could be bent with your fingers.
It the core was a copper-lead alloy, it may weigh very near the correct amount.
Those flan splits on the edge are NOT well defined, and suggest, (to me at least), that the core was cast.
Can't quite make up my mind that the coin was struck after the plating, because (probable) wear may have disguised the finer details.
To get a 'handle' on some of my ideas, I would be tempted to look at the edge of this coin with a high powered loupe.
Edited by sel_69l
08/20/2013 10:03 am
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Moderator
 Australia
16867 Posts |
Sorry, forgot to add the weight. I haven't weighed it myself, but the seller (or a previous owner) wrote "2.24 grams" on the 2x2. Assuming that's correct, that seems to be far towards the light end of a Balbinus denarius, even for an apparently worn one like this. None of the Balbinus denarii on Wildwinds are that light, though a couple come close. I will try to weigh it myself tomorrow to confirm.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
3626 Posts |
It seems like a nice coin. I would take a Balbinus in any condition.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5155 Posts |
I don't think I can make a sound determination from the photo...To me the coin doesn't look right. The patina in the 6-7 o'clock region looks fabricated but again I am not familiar enough with the coinage of this ruler to comment further. I look forward to seeing new photos and proper dimensions. Goodluck my friend.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4973 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2100 Posts |
I am torn between a worn original die match and a cast. I do not think it is a fouree from the images. If there is a break in the plating and some of the core visible then we can conclude fouree but I cannot see this from the images. The only reason I meniotn cast is the general lack of detail. All the letters seem thicker and without definition.
I hope that it is a worn original though.
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Moderator
Australia
16867 Posts |
Thanks all.
Just weighed it here at work; it came out at 2.22 grams.
I should also mention the above picture is a scan. I will try some actual photos when I get home.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Moderator
Australia
16867 Posts |
Sorry for the delay, I got distracted as usual. But here are some camera pics, rather than scans:  And here's a pic of the edge, as best as I can take it.  There's green stuff at a couple of places, and a couple of places that almost look like it might be remnants of a seam. Significant or not? Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5155 Posts |
SNNNIFFFFF.....I smell bologna!
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21788 Posts |
High copper billon coins can darken considerably as they age, but they still much more often appear lighter than ancient bronze coins.
The silver purity of known genuine denarii of Balbinus was around 50%.
I SUPPOSE that IF there is enough copper in a billon alloy, verdigris could still form. That could explain the 'green on black' that is seen here.
I don't know how high the purity of copper needs to be in a billon alloy, to see what we see here, but I have never seen verdigris on any modern coin with a 50% silver purity.
The lack of signs of tensile metal stress on the inside surfaces of cracks makes me lean towards the possibility of a cast coin.
Edited by sel_69l
08/27/2013 11:53 am
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Replies: 11 / Views: 1,890 |
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Posted 08/20/2013 09:38 am
