Some Grading Opinions

With Respect:

Will all you Pseudo-Numismatists out there in wonderland please (oh please) beware of who is casting the "first stone".

Klaus Ford has forgotten more about numismatics than any of you would care to remember. Mr Ford is a long standing associate of mine whom I regard as a friend and feel obliged to come to his defence relating to any undermining of his knowledge, experience and integrity, both within the numismatic fraternity and the human race itself.

Having utilised this wonderful hobby of ours since the early 60s, I have taken on the phylosophy that "knowledge is power" and with this attitude I have been able to interact with a plethera of dealers, auction houses and private individuals in matters of hobby and business.

If one is not happy with a product; don't buy it. If one wants the product but is not happy with the price, be very diplomatic with the negotiation. Never, ever question the integrity of the dealer; merely criticise the product issue until the price is right. This technique is really only warranted when there is some doubt on the value of the product versus the price. If the item happens to be unique, then it should not be an issue.
As far as grading is concerned, there may be issues on its objectivity if the level of quality falls below "extremely fine". When the item is clearly in "mint state", this will be much simpler to define.
Relating to originality (as opposed to authenticity); if the "eye appeal" exists and the price reflects the grade and/or any additional description needs, then it would seem like an easy choice. If there is any doubt, then don't buy it.
Better to be "cut and dry" than to vacilate and reserve the purchase decision until one needs to seek others' opinions prior to purchasing. If one needs to do this, it is obvious that one requires education on the matter.

Having dealt with Klaus Ford for around 35 years, and after hundreds of purchases/sales; I will categorically state that his conduct has been second to none, and have and will (continue to) purchase from him "sight unseen" with the confidence that what I receive (whether it be on approval basis or not) will be as described. If I feel there may be some slight descrepancy in the grade, then I will certainly haggle the price (and we have ALWAYS agreed in the end).

Relating to silver denominations and their state of preservation; what I will say is that it would be almost impossible to acquire a 100 year old KGV coin with full mint bloom and cartwheel lustre with natural existence over such time. Yet such coins (in mentioned condition) are almost the rule, not the exception. Let us not fool ourselves; silver coins in high grade lend themselves to dipping in order to prevent tarnish/corrosion over time. The arguement lies within the professional method used (a story for another day).
Would any of you "doubting Thomases" out there deny the preservation (in olive oil) of a fully brilliant 1911 penny if it were offered to you in its original state due to its immersion in olive oil for over 100 years? The same case can be made for the intermittent conservation of mint-state silver coins of the era.

Then again, if one likes fully toned coins caused by ambient moisture and/or misshandling, so be it. I know which option I would take.
All investment idiologies aside, numismatics is in the eye of the beholder.

Carlo D'Angio

It is silly criticising people for learning about coins from more experienced numismatists is blatantly wrong. No one in the world of numismatics knows everything which holds true for you.


Now the scenario with the 1911 penny is completely different as it still holds its original surfaces while a dipped coin will exhibit significant damage particularly through the destruction of the finer details. Anyway toning is not a negative process as it is portrayed by you but is in fact a very positive process and in fact aids eye appeal. Also with your proposal that cleaning is allowable and that they are worth just as much as an original coin then you have obviously not spent much time at auction houses particularly Noble whom are honest and tell their customers whether a coin has been cleaned.

Now on your point on toning. Toning is when a coin forms a passivating layer on the surface of the coin through it's ineraction with the atmosphere which serves to PROTECT the surfaces of the coin from damage. TONING IS NOT DAMAGING TO A COIN.

From the pictures presented in the first post to this thread, there no doubt in my mind that the '34 florin was treated with metal polish.
It has lost a full grade, and all of it's original lustre.

Again, from the pictures presented of Klaus' florins, I cannot make up my mind if they were cleaned or not. They may have been, but if that is the case, they have been professionally cleaned, by the looks of them.
That's OK by me, because the decision to buy or not is still based on what is actually being presented for sale, cleaned or not. The buyer has to make his own decision to buy and to negotiate the price 'as is'.

If the dealer says that is has been cleaned when it hasn't, that's another matter. Better for the dealer to shut up and say nuthin'. However, it is usually better for a dealer to provide accurate and truthful detail to help sell his coins.

Unfortunately, coin descriptions can involve debatable subjective opinion, and can occasionally, although not commonly, be a minefield for disagreement and dispute.

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I strongly object to being called a 'pseudo numismatist' when you have no idea of who I am. I may have a few large gaps in my numismatic knowledge, but I have been around for a while.

The heated debate in this thread is not typical CCF decorum.
Lots of moments.
At least Carlo has put his name in his post and for that he has to be respected.
Carlo, many on this site are not pseudo numismatists, some (like Walter) are proffessional and in the industry, others are highly skilled in their numismatic research and are as knowledgeable on their particular interests as any proffessional numismatist. As for your friend having forgotten more than posters here will ever know I would call that hyperbole as I know that certain posters here know more on their particular field than ANY dealer.
It is a bug-bear to many posters here the less than truthful behaviour of many ANDA members. If a coin has been proffessionally conserved then why not let the buyer know?
Anyhow, and I hope the lively debate hasn't soured your view of this worthy site, most of us (even Trout) are friendy codgers.

Hello I believe that there is another way to solve this

remember that coin grading is highly subjective and a defence to defamation is truth in statement.
so in my opinion Klaus Ford coin dealer Australia would have to prove not only that you defamed Klaus Ford coin dealer Australia by having an opinion on wether the coin is cleaned or not but Klaus Ford coin dealer australia would also have to prove that it was in fact not cleaned and that the person being sued was reckless in stating that it was thus causing Klaus Ford coin dealer australia a loss.
bottom line is issue your writ Klaus Ford coin dealer australia and see how it goes for you. I however would opinion that you have very poor prospects of a successful suit and would expend more money on the case than is viable when you consider the cost to your "reputation" and its financial flow on effect
however your use of such heavy handed threatening tactics on this web site is more damaging in my opinion than the original subject matter and Klaus Ford coin dealer Australia you really should have just let it lie instead of breathing new life in the matter. I also don't like bully tactics Klaus Ford coin dealer Australia and I am sure that in future is people search your name they will find your reaction enlightening when they consider dealing with you Klaus Ford coin dealer Australia

Also trout and serial thanks for your support it means a lot from fellow CCF members and I will not forget it

For those that don't know who Carlo is ( like trout), he is a regular contributor to Coin And Banknote Magazine and a long time collector of pre decimal coins.