Some Grading Opinions

I'd heard he often gives away loupes to his better customers.

I'll be lodging a complaint through Fair Trading. This deceptive conduct shouldn't be allowed to go on. I encourage anyone who experienced a similar thing to report them as well via this URL:
https://www.cas.fairtrading.nsw.gov...Type=general

Hi folks,

From less than satisfactory past experience, I am hard pressed to take part on forums where members can hide behind fictitious ID's to post views and opinions, which when analyzed in detail, do come close to defamation. Additionally, others clearly have vested interests and are not shy in regularly pushing their own agenda on this forum.

However, comments posted in relation the the 1923 Florin are forcing me to change my mind on this occasion, i.e. I refute the allegation that the coin was "dipped" or "cleaned."

In the first instance, (and this should be apparent to most), the images posted are of limited use to compare the coin. The Noble image is a photo, while the other is a scan. Furthermore, and if one looks closely at the Reverse of the scanned coin, one can see that the dark spot to the left of the shield and a similar discoloring in the rim beads above the T in Two are still in place, as they are on the Noble coin image. Yes, they are fainter on the scanned image (a photo rather than a scan would show better detail) but they are certainly as prominent on the actual coin as they are in the photo. This would not be so if the coin was "dipped." (I do plead guilty to having removed the dark spot in the B of Britt on the Obverse - with great care - as I considered it detrimental to the general Eye Appeal of the coin. This was NOT done by "dipping" the coin.)

The issue of "cleaning" coins is not as black and white as it seems most on this forum chose to believe or have been led to believe. The very existence of the NCS (Numismatic Conservation Service) in the USA, and the more recently offered restoration & conservation service for coins by PCGS Restoration (Service)

http://www.pcgsasia.com/Restoration?l=en

are a case in point. Depending on the results of their work, (which by the very nature of the exercise actually does involve "cleaning" and "dipping") coins can be and are being slabbed WITHOUT the conservation & restoration process being mentioned. In other words, (and if we refrain from splitting hairs) certain types of cleaning a coin are acceptable. When it obviously shows, it is called "harsh cleaning" and it is not.

While I can accept that a coin in its original state (original here meaning the state which it may have acquired over many years after having been minted) may be the preferred state by which some collectors may wish to collect their coins, (no matter how unattractively toned or even dirty they may be) let me assure you, it is not an acceptable condition for many others. I should not need to mention here criteria that must be considered when grading a coin, save to say that there are many collectors who place importance on quality of strike and an absence of contact marks ahead of an insignificant loss of luster or brilliance that may occur if a coin is "cleaned" with the required expertise.

In another recent thread, a member posted the image of a 1922 Six Pence which, (with apologies to the current owner) shows a Reverse that looks like a regurgitated dogs breakfast. The given MS64 grade by a US Grading Service was avidly defended by another member. I do offer this comment: Any Grading Standard which allows (or a Grading Service which awards) the grade given to this coin, needs some "serious tweaking." Compare this coin

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1922-SIXPEN..._3936wt_1191

with another of the same type currently offered on ebay

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Australia-1...ht_924wt_997

and give me a SENSIBLE answer explaining that these coins should be given a similar grade. (Sorry about not posting the pics; the owners may claim copyright.)

It is my position that a coin with a downright ugly tone or harmful substances on its surfaces (which in time may further deteriorate the basic integrity of the coin) should receive attention in line with conservation and preservation. This is not akin to harmful cleaning, and it does not improve the grade. This view is acknowledged by many in the numismatic community; in fact, strongly so in the USA. Others may or may not agree with this; that is their prerogative.

In line with my comments above and the accepted practices employed by coin preservation and restoration services in the numismatic industry, (and by the way, such practices are not the prerogative or privilege of companies that may engage in the task professionally and for a fee â€" and neither is the grading of coins) I will respond in the negative if I am asked if a coin that I offer to sell has been "cleaned" or "dipped."

Like every other numismatist in the industry, I too disagree with harmful cleaning, excessive dipping and coin doctoring; the definition of the later easily being found on the internet. However, the "never ever touch my coin" view that is held and spread by some on this forum is not shared by every other professional, and is almost certainly detrimental to the long-term stability of condition (and value) of coins that may and will benefit from expert attention.

Finally, (and if you are not already familial with this) I recommend a brochure published by the PNG (Professional Numismatic Guild) in the US. Thought I do recommend that one should not bother, unless one is able to read with an open mind.

http://www.ncscoin.com/pdfs/conservation_guide.pdf

Klaus Ford

Good article Walter

What about the 1911 coin?

Restoration,Conservation or ANY Cleaning done to a Coin MUST be acknowledged by a seller and Especially a Dealer.
Even if the coin was cleaned before the seller or dealer acquired it
Not to do so Is totally dishonest and shameful.
The Peter Wallace's of this hobby/Business are quite frankly a disgrace.
Thankfully and In no small part due to Forums like this one many more collectors are NOW aware of these shady operators shenanigans and steer clear of them.
And NO I don't hide behind an anonymous persona, Many people Know my name and my ebay handle, Some even know where I live

Thank you Klaus for taking the time to reply but if you really believe what you wrote then you wouldn't have lied to me. The fact that you did shows that you know cleaning devalues coins repudiating your response.

P.S. Don't make empty threats about defamation, threatening people into silence is a disgraceful practice. If you actually sued someone for defamation you will be required by law to provide the defense with any information relevant to the case. This would include information on every coin you've ever cleaned, contact details of clients you've sold cleaned coins to, records of other customer complaints, etc. Can you imagine what that would do to your business? Also you'd lose the case and be ordered to pay costs because truth is a valid defense.

Interesting reading, thanks to all who have contributed. The bottom line however still remains the same, one should be confident of a purchase from a dealer of coins.!
I sincerely hope that forums like this continue to educate in all facets of the hobby, plain and simple.!