I'm not that great at interpreting photos but I think that there is a high probability that both of these have at least seen a light cleaning. On the grades I'll go with F-12 on the 1st and F-15 on the 2nd.
Obverse- VG-8, Reverse- F-12. Net VG-10 on the first one. Probably cleaned. On the second one, VF-20. Probably cleaned. Can't tell for sure from the pics about the cleaning.
I agree with jpbone the reverse is better than the obverse making your first one about a VG10 or so. The other one I'd say a high F15 to a VF20, I am no expert just throwing out a ballpark area.
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