Coin Community Family of Web Sites Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors
Coin, Banknote and Medal Collectors's Online Mall Vancouvers #1 Coin and Paper Money Dealer Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors Specializing in Modern Numismatics Royal Canadian Mint products, Canadian, Polish, American, and world coins and banknotes. Royal Estate Auctions - $1 Coin Auctions300,000 items to help build your collection!








Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?


This page may contain links that result in small commissions to keep this free site up and running.

Welcome Guest! Registering and/or logging in will remove the anchor (bottom) ads. It's Free!

The Restored Smackdown VII: Opposites

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 81 / Views: 10,819Next Topic
Page: of 6
Pillar of the Community
Russian Federation
5176 Posts
 Posted 10/22/2013  1:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add january1may to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Considering someone actually voted for it, I guess I could add some facts about my Peter I coin that I didn't have time to add in my original hurried entry...


Well, first of all, an important missing word is "Russia wire kopek". But I guess most of you know it already Another part that didn't make it to the entry is the catalog reference (KG 1586).

Second, despite the 1696 date, the coin's probably crude enough to pass for medieval if you don't know the specifics. Certainly similar technology had been used for Russian coins in the 15th and even 14th centuries; admittedly the style of (later) Russian wire money is pretty darn recognizable (some part of a horseman on one side, several lines of tiny letters on the other) and hadn't been used as such until the 1530s (early reign of Ivan IV).
[Unrelatedly: I wonder if this practice of putting the legend in several lines in tiny letters is inspired by Byzantine coins (anonymous or not). Certainly early Russian wire coins usually had circular legends, much like other European coinage - but then so did the latest Byzantine issues contemporary to this Russian practice! On the other hand, Arabic coins had multi-line legends since as long as they existed, so they might be a more plausible source of inspiration... ]

And finally, third...
You might've noticed that my original entry dated the coin as "circa 1696", but TIF's recap just gave the date as 1696, without any approximation sings, Which is correct? Both, actually.
This coin issue (KG 1586) is traditionally attributed to the joint rule of Peter I and his brother Ivan V; within that series, die studies put it as very very late, so that it is in fact the last coin listed in the relevant section of the KG catalogue (there are half-kopeks and counterfeits further on in the catalogue, and there is a further volume for Peter I sole coinage, but 1586 is the last officially-issued kopek in its volume of KG).
Meanwhile, other experts started to suspect (as far as I can understand, mainly based on legend matching - most other Peter obverse[1] legends had exact counterparts in Ivan's name, this one doesn't) that this issue is not in fact from Peter's joint rule with Ivan, but from his sole rule (and presumably has no place in this volume of KG, but they included it anyway).
Nevertheless, the traditional view is that Peter I's sole issues are exactly the ones with dates on them (which are at least all for Peter - none are attested for Ivan). KG 1586 doesn't have a date on it - in the place where immediately succeeding issues would have a date (right under the horseman), it says "Russia" (one letter of this inscription is visible on my example). Meanwhile, immediately preceding issues use this place for the mintmark (well, there's a small group of coins with the same reverse that also say "Russia", but all the other reverses have the mintmark in there).
You might wonder where does the dating of this coin come in. Well, the earliest date attested on Peter I coins is (7)204, corresponding to 1695/96 AD and traditionally equated to 1696 (the year actually ended in September); so KG 1586[2], a dateless issue, couldn't have been issued later. (Die studies agree here.) Meanwhile, Ivan V died in January 1696, so if KG 1586 is indeed from Peter's sole rule, it has to be at least as late as that; giving it a period of Jan-Sept 1696, i.e. well within the year 1696.
But of course, as I said, the traditional view is that KG 1586 dates to the joint rule of Peter and Ivan; so if that version is used, the issue is not necessarily from 1696, but could be also from, say, 1695 or possibly even 1694 (it's unlikely to be far earlier).
You probably noticed by now that I'm just juggling expert opinions here. What is my own opinion, you might ask? Well, the "Russia" issue certainly must've had to commemorate something patriotic. There's no obvious candidate in 1694 or 1695, but there is one in 1696 - the conquest of Azov in June-July. As such, my opinion is that this issue commemorates the conquest of Azov (and the general action surrounding it), and was minted in 1696 (likely in August of that year). This is, of course, my opinion only (I couldn't find any specific articles discussing this issue, though I didn't search much); but you can probably see that there's a strong case for 1696 anyway



[1] I've no idea what is the obverse and what is the reverse on Russian wire money; in this discussion, I use the terms based on Wikipedia claiming that the horseman is on the reverse; no idea if this is correct.
[2] from this point on, when I refer to KG 1586, I might as well mean the entire group with "Russia" under horseman, as the conclusions apply to all of them equally
Valued Member
Jimbo777's Avatar
United Kingdom
201 Posts
 Posted 10/23/2013  05:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Jimbo777 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the information January, very interesting. I have been on the look out for a nice example Ivan IV for a while and the ones I have come across look very similar in style and design to your coin.
I am no expert in this field but your assertion that the multi line legends where inspired by Byzantine coins seems likely to me when reflecting on the considerable influence that Byzantine culture and orthodox christianity had on Russia before this period. I suppose its impossible to be certain though.
Pillar of the Community
ThisIsFun's Avatar
United States
2480 Posts
 Posted 10/23/2013  05:38 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ThisIsFun to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Jimbo-- haven't heard from you yet about a prize and you don't have PM enabled. PM me...

Valued Member
Jimbo777's Avatar
United Kingdom
201 Posts
 Posted 10/23/2013  07:12 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Jimbo777 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hi TIF, have just sent you a mail, please let me know if you dont receive it.

Still need to work out how to enable PM on my profile
Moderator
Learn More...
echizento's Avatar
United States
23731 Posts
 Posted 10/23/2013  10:34 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Jimbo, go to your profile page and on the top you will see a pencil icon click on that to edit your profile enter your password and you will see where you can turn on your e-mail.
Valued Member
Jimbo777's Avatar
United Kingdom
201 Posts
 Posted 10/23/2013  12:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Jimbo777 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Echizento, will give it a try
  Previous TopicReplies: 81 / Views: 10,819Next Topic
Page: of 6

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.



    




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Forums
It took 0.23 seconds to rattle this change. Forums