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All Help Needed (Unique Kopeken 1727 Mint Moscow)

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vince1977's Avatar
Netherlands
847 Posts
 Posted 01/08/2014  06:13 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add vince1977 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Dear members,

I have got since an weak a really special coin in my collection. And I need all help if possible to find more about this coin. It is the Moscow 1 kopeken 1727. Unknown piece for collectors. Can't find in auctions or catalogus. Only mentioned in some articles in Russian language. They say there are only 5 known of this one.
Ive send it to some auction houses (the pictures) But they are afraid it is an forgery and don't want to take it in theyr auction. However I can't find an fake on the internet everywhere. Same as the original one. It is like an ghost. That is why it is interesting to find out if it is real. At first I didn't want to put it on the internet but even if it is fake. Whe can have an good discussion about it.

I am wondering if there are fakes on the internet. If someone have seen the real ones? Any information is welcome. And I think it would be interesting for an lot of collectors to know more about this unknown coin.

Ive got some websites which tell something about this coin. It is in Russian so you have to let google translate it in your own language. Or if you know Russian you don't. The story is very interesting.

http://historymania.info/view_post.php?id=175

Here on this website below it said it is an Trial strike?

http://www.m-dv.ru/monety-rossii-17...7/types.html

I am curious and I'm looking forward to your opinions.

Best wishes,

Vincent


All-Help-Needed-Unique-Kopeken-1727-Mint-Moscow

All-Help-Needed-Unique-Kopeken-1727-Mint-Moscow
Pillar of the Community
United States
1666 Posts
 Posted 01/08/2014  06:21 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Numismat to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There are no known genuine examples of this type and dated 1727. The coin is a fantasy piece that never actually existed.
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vince1977's Avatar
Netherlands
847 Posts
 Posted 01/08/2014  06:33 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add vince1977 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hello Numismat,

Thank you for your reaction. But even it is an fantasy piece. There are no known others on the internet. So what is it? If it is an common fake you can easily find it. But you can't and if it is an forgery. It is rare even then. That is why I post it. Because they say it does exist but they don't have it. And even the fake ones you can't find for sale... That is why it make this one interesting. I don't care if it is worth much or not. However it is always nice to know it is valuable. But I am more interested in the story and other pieces and everything else there is about this coin to know.
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 Posted 01/08/2014  06:50 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Numismat to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It is most likely a 19th century piece meant for collectors, not a common modern fake. This is why you don't see them all over the internet.

It would be about the same story as this coin: http://www.beastcoins.com/World/Russia/E0571.jpg

This is considered a novodel, but your coin is not an official novodel.
Edited by Numismat
01/08/2014 06:53 am
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Netherlands
847 Posts
 Posted 01/08/2014  11:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add vince1977 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Is there more information about this my coin in particulair. If there is no comparing with another coin it is easy to say it is fake. Because it doenst exist... But I also can't find the fake ones of this particulair. You need something to compare to create this one I think.. And it said in the articles that it is listed as an fake. Because nooone has information about the real one..
Is there something I can do to know the age of this coin? An method you can see how old this one is? Or someone who has made papers about this coin which I can contact?

They auction houses say also it is an fake. But I think it is more because they don't have an comparing example and they don't want bad reputation. I would say the same.

That is why I hope there are more people who know / have information about this coin. Even if it is fake maybe there is information about the fake ones there are of the 1727 moscow mint.

I am to curious about this coin and have to less information to say this is it..
And I really appreciate it numismat for your reactions. Can't find an novodel of this one either..
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847 Posts
 Posted 01/08/2014  1:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add vince1977 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I also found this information on the Internet.

V. Koretsky HISTORY delusion for collectors of old Russian coins , even for beginners , not uncommon copper penny 1728-1729 gg with front - under the figure of a horseman - the inscription . "Moscow " , and on the back - cross inscription "penny " and the year of issue . But exactly the same cake, but dated 1727, can be seen very few collectors coin . Happy owners of these coins proudly say that penny "Moscow" in 1727 - a rare coin , beaten only a few copies ! knowledge that is not described in 1727 in the pre-revolutionary numismatic manuals Original penny "Moscow" and some authors have noted only one novodelnuyu cent this year , attributing to the currencies of Catherine II [ I] 2 . However, in many commercial catalogs Russian coins XIX - XX centuries . advertised is only true penny "Moscow" in 1727 , which the editors of these directories are unanimous in recognizing a rare and valuable coin Peter II [ 2 ] . Such contradictions are certainly surprised many collectors Russian coins in the early XX century. , And in our time , in reality, real penny "Moscow" in 1727 ensured mainly collectors , collecting coins " Petrov " 3 . Novodelnaya 1 coin or remake - coin beaten authentic or newly manufactured for stamping coins garden, but at a later time . 2 After this , the figures in brackets indicate the source . 3 Catalog Russian numismatic coin shop VI Petrov . Finding reliable information about this coin , I turned to archival material and state museums . From decrees of the Supreme Privy Council and protocols Mint offices of the Council in 1727 that Catherine I take drastic measures to minting copper coins to increase , but only one , nickels , dignity . Same small copper coin denominations were not beaten , and Peter I previously issued coins - dengue and mite - goes to the greenhouse for remelting . This is due , apparently, that a significant reduction in the weight of the copper coin ( after 1718 ) caused enhanced version of counterfeiting , especially small denominations , hauntings which presents no particular problems , but promised more benefits . It was therefore decided to withdraw from circulation and dengue mite old release in exchange for nickels , forgery which apparently represent technical problems back. In order to achieve this, and also because of the lack of small coins in circulation are stimulated by the release of copper kopeck coins . Recognition of the utmost importance and urgency of this problem , Catherine I asked at the beginning of 1727, Major General AV Volkov , held at Berg- Collegium urgently go to Moscow to clarify . The possibility of enhanced tanning pennies as the Coins Volkov found Moscow Never expire and incapacitated . Were necessary urgent measures , and March 7, Catherine I took an edict " On reordering mints ." [ 3 ] At the same time , greater operational control coins same decree Moscow Mint Office transferred from the jurisdiction of the Mining College, keeping Count Musin - Pushkin II , and his son , Plato and Berg - Collegium adviser Vasily Tatischev instructed the turn Moscow Mint and prepare them for the mass beating five cop.Herstellen copper redistribution in Moscow Catherine I was delayed because the promenade and the Red ( Kitaygorodsky ) mints had almost rebuild again . Only May 31, 1727 AV Volkov reported entered at this time on the throne of Peter II on the progress of the restoration of the Moscow Mint. [ 4 ] In the present situation, in 1727 no question of making new stamps and training could be penny coinage new sample at the Moscow Mint. At present only force Kadashevskiy Mint produces copper coin worth only pennies . Government Peter II was forced to continue the restoration begun by Catherine I of copper redistribution in Moscow , June 30, 1727 was an edict of the Senate " about making copper five runner and former udder money ." [5 ] Only towards the end of 1727 all Moscow mints willing to work and began producing copper pennies with signs of peppermint " MIM " , " HL " and " KD . " Mass production of copper pennies , which Moscow Mint began under Peter II , somewhat weakened to now due to a lack of small denominations of copper coin . tension , but there are problems in the money supply continued Considering this , the Supreme Privy Council prepared a decree " on creating new copper penny stamp " approved February 7, 1728 decree ordered the minting of new copper penny , and exemplary penny "seal cord and send the Mint in the office" . [ 6 ] the new monsters cent publicly announced decree Monetnaya office April 10, 1728 was , it was reported that " the kopecks to to add to the one side, the rider on the horse , by the letters : Moscow , on the other side against five transverse agent , including the cross in the one half of the signature : . penny, the other Moscow " , " First penny picture " which appeared in 1728, in 1728 survived to this day in the book of drawings and paintings of Full Collection of Laws of the Russian Empire ( â„- 5259 ) . Indeed, in the first sample of cake "Moscow" beaten previously in February 1728 and throughout 1727 as under Catherine II , and under Peter II have been issued a dime . - in the catalog price list Lyubomudrova "Old Russian coins valuable ," published in 1901 , drew attention to the message that there is a picture posted penny "Moscow" in 1727 ( â„- 256 ) is made from the original stored in the Hermitage. Famous Russian researcher coins IG Spassky in a letter , which I received in 1965 , stated the following: " the Hermitage has 5 copies cent in 1727 , which are in the collection of counterfeit coins and pampered . Two of them in compiling the catalog , at the beginning of the twentieth century , were included in the collection of the Hermitage and the catalog of the coins , but both ruled AA Ilyin , who revise and supplement these folders. Against both of them made ​​the same record - . " The last two digits of 28 converted " So , a penny "Moscow" 1727 scientists attributed to the production of the counterfeiters . Lyubomudrov that his catalog of rare coins in the twenty years before he published the Hermitage AA ilina probably took a fake penny from the Hermitage collection in the newly opened a rare coin . The collection of the author also received two copies of a penny "Moscow" in 1727 from the collection of known numismatist , one of the founders of the Moscow Numismatic Society , AD Nechayev . Fake penny "Moscow" in 1727 recognized the full coincidence stamps face of a cent in 1728 and the implementation of any date in the last seven on the back . During the treatment of several such coins can be seen that the pattern of the last seven is not repeated , and each instance has its own individual characteristics that could not be obtained from the beaten by the same stamp coins , but inevitably in artisanal refining each coin manually . Than can the appearance cent "Moscow" , explaining dated 1727 ? They are well known in the XIX and XX centuries . Their appearance greatly contributed original advertised these coins authors currency trade catalogs . Possibility of easy money being cheated gullible collectors of rarities led many counterfeiters fabricate " scarce " penny . Conventional processing kopecks 1728 in " rare" 1727 was a profitable business and therefore in many Russian cities , and apparently in substantial quantities . Fake penny "Moscow" in 1727 appeared likely in the first half of the nineteenth century and were first spotted a big collector of the time Ya Ya Reichel , began to gather in the early twenties . Russian coins In the catalog mint meeting Reichel [ 7 ] , published in 1842 , in the " forgery " under the number 4635 described copper penny Peter II in 1728 , which is made of the number 8 the number 7 . Unfortunately reyhelevsky catalog ( in German ) was not available a wide range of currencies and therefore could not be used to expose the counterfeiters . interesting to note that in 55 years after the catalog description reyhelevskogo penny "Moscow" in 1727 appeared in the work of the eminent Moscow collector , numismatist PV Zubov . The author does not doubt the authenticity of the copy could not trust explain origins and wrote about it : " ... we do not dare to say yes to what is necessary to carry our dominion cent since the same as a penny of this type come in 1728 and 1729 's , we assign it to the reign of Peter expectation II . " Teeth believed this , he from the collection of AI Tcherepnin example Beaten authentic stamp in 1727 , however , as shown above , the possibility of striking cent " Moscow " in 1727 is excluded received . Apparently, in the collection of Zubov became very carefully executed counterfeit currency . described the story of "rare " kopeks 1727 "Moscow" explains the origin of the so-called novodelnyh cent this year . Unless real mint stamps in 1727 one cent coin production " remakes " easiest thing in the same way - the last two digits of the year of change "28" , but novodelnyh kopecks 1728, who was beaten in large quantities for collectors of orders at the St. Petersburg Mint in the XIX century and the beginning of the XX century Apparently , . . at the end of the XIX century XX Gil , and then I. Tolstoy and AA Ilyin were misled skilful forgery and included in their work novodelnuyu penny "Moscow" in 1727 , attributing to the coins Catherine I. But in the meeting remakes Gosermitazha compiled and cataloged AA Ilyin , novodelnaya kopek 1727 "Moscow ," the IG Spassky missing. Ilyin , begun in the Hermitage in 1920 , spent cleaning the old assembly , exiled from his counterfeit coins and re- cataloged remakes . Finally wants I like collectors warn - all options kopecks 1727 "Moscow " and " authentic" , so and " novodelnyh " certainly should be considered forgeries , no interest for numismatists Sources : 1 Gil X. "Tables Russian coins of the last two centuries . . . " SPB . , 1898 Ilyin and Tolstoy . " Russian coins , beaten 1725-1801 " , St. Petersburg . , 1910 . 2 . Wisdom IV " Old rare Russian coins " , St. Petersburg . , 1901 Ramon A. " Complete practical guide for collectors of old rare , expensive Russian coins " , Riga , 1904 , Catalogue Russian numismatic coin shop VI Petrov Moscow , 3rd edition . M " in 1900 . 3. SPB.State . Archive M Ying - wa . Business . , Res . , XIX , case number 133. 4. Volkova report about Moscow mints . SPB . State . Archive M Ying - wa . Business . , Res . XIX , case number 133.5 . Mosk . Archive M Department of Justice . Cases of the Senate Chancellery Monetnaya No. 1/683 , page 232 . 6. Complete Collection of Laws of the Russian Empire , â„- 5235 . 7. That Reich Tunisian Munzsammlung in St. Petersburg , 1842 . In 1842 . 8. Teeth PV Materials in Russian numismatics . M. , 1897 Link to the " Book of drawings and paintings PSZRI "
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DVCollector's Avatar
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10045 Posts
 Posted 01/08/2014  1:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DVCollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This detailed description ^ is quite a bit to read and correlate to the coin you posted. Unfortunately, without pictures on their part we're simply left guessing if your coin matches any described in this article.
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 Posted 01/08/2014  2:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add vince1977 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I just copy and paste from an russian website. I don't have these books/links and other information they used to made this article. Maybe anyone here has that information I don't know... Just looking for an answer so I give the information I found and maybe someone has the missing links.. :)
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847 Posts
 Posted 01/12/2014  09:08 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add vince1977 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It is a Shame. Probably a dead end I guess? I tried to send some emails to russian people. But google translater isn't that good translater. And I don't have an clue how they would read it. Probably some rare dialect to them.. I keep trying but the books they used in the messages I send before can't find them online. At least it was nice to dig in the story about this coin.. the 80 euro's I paid doens't matter that much. I learned alot and hope to find someday the answer or more about this coin in particulair..
Best wishes,
Vincent
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 Posted 01/12/2014  2:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gxseries to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
80 euros is too much. There was never such a kopek made. While there exist patterns, this is definitely not one of them, nor is this a restrike or novodel.
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Belgium
2895 Posts
 Posted 01/15/2014  5:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Petrus to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
this is an official novodel
some other pictures:
http://www.mcsearch.info/record.html?id=165038
http://www.mcsearch.info/record.html?id=164844
Kopek, copper, 1727, large MOCKBA
You must know that every year new coins are found and added in Krause
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