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Bait And Switch?

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Susuman's Avatar
United States
595 Posts
 Posted 02/02/2014  11:11 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Susuman to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
So, I was searching through the local Craigslist ads and found this ad:


Quote:
I have over $400 face value of 90% silver coins and about $100 face value of 40% lots of Morgan's some uncirculated condition Peace dollars and Silver Eagles! I have gold coins and 1 and 2.5 gram bars! And a lot more!! $15.50 per face dollar 90%. Thanks....


I called him up yesterday and said that I was interested in taking a look at some of his silver coins, in particular to get some lower end Morgans as hole fillers at a good price. He said that he also had Franklin halves and other 90% coinage. He basically told me that wants to move lower end silver to raise cash for other coin purchases. Ok, reasonable enough. I called him back again today to arrange a meeting and basically got that set-up, though he is about a 2 hour drive from me. At the end of the conversation, I very pointedly asked 'From your ad, I understand that you are selling your 90% silver coinage, including various Morgans and Peace dollars at the listed price?' The answer I got was 'oh, no only the 90% silver.' After I basically said 'huh?' he explained to me that 90% silver means junk silver and Morgans and Peace dollars are worth more. Granted that he then told me the prices on his Morgans and Peace dollars, and they are not bad, but I have a problem with this way of selling things as it seems to be a bait and switch. I would not have been happy if I drove that far and found out that the prices were different from what I had been led to believe. I do not have any problem with the specific prices being asked, but rather the marketing. Am I wrong here?

From my perspective, any type of questionable marketing sends up red flags, and if I see such red flags, I will not deal with them.....
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justin3651's Avatar
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621 Posts
 Posted 02/02/2014  11:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add justin3651 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
personally since he listed them as another item after the 90% silver in the ad and the way he said it to me doesn't really seem deceitful. I don't see it as a bait and switch either really, he most likely has some items he is more interested in selling than others and tried to steer you towards that, but after you asked he did give you the price and didn't try to back out of selling them.
Just my feeling I get from the situation. :)
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biokemist6's Avatar
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12437 Posts
 Posted 02/02/2014  11:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biokemist6 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
he explained to me that 90% silver means junk silver and Morgans and Peace dollars are worth more.

That is correct. Morgan and Peace dollars contain 0.05oz more silver per dollar face value than dimes, quarters, and half dollars. Because of the silver content difference, dollars almost always sell for a premium over the typically quoted face value multiplier for 90% silver.
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BH1964's Avatar
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10982 Posts
 Posted 02/03/2014  01:02 am  Show Profile   Check BH1964's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add BH1964 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Am I wrong here?


Yes and no. 90% is typically not how Silver Dollars are described and an experienced buyer would have expected to pay more. You didn't expect uncirculated silver dollars at $15.50/each did you? I am glad you got things clarified and certainly the ad could have been more clear but is not what I would term bait and switch.

Now about driving 2 hours to meet someone one Craigslist? Do be careful and meet in a public place. I assume you are familiar with basic authentication of U.S. coinage? Goo luck!
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Susuman's Avatar
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595 Posts
 Posted 02/03/2014  01:39 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Susuman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the feedback. Generally, of course, I would not expect to pay $15.50 for Morgans or Peace dollars. I know that they are worth more than that. But, I have seen stranger things, and that is how I read the ad, and that is the impression I was left with after our first conversation. I also don't know from a craigslist ad with no photos what the person really has. Although stated as uncirculated, that could be a very optimistic grading on the sellers part, so that I was taking with a large grain of salt.

Truthfully, I am not generally one that looks at junk silver purchases. I do not have a lot of experience with that, so perhaps I am missing some assumptions on the sellers part. That is fair enough. Silver dollars are .900 silver, which is 90%, regardless of the actual mass. I did not realize though that people consider the $1 face value of a dollar coin differently that $1 face value made up of other denominations. I learned something today and that is always good:)

I can say that I certainly would word the ad differently, and be sure on an initial phone conversation to clarify those differences if it seemed like something was not understood correctly.

Please do not get me wrong - I am not sitting here angry and huffing and puffing, nor am I one to demand that someone sell something to me under its value. Mostly I was just curious about others opinions on the situation.
Edited by Susuman
02/03/2014 4:49 pm
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trdhrdr007's Avatar
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 Posted 02/03/2014  09:51 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add trdhrdr007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Truthfully, I am not generally one that looks at junk silver purchases. I do not have a lot of experience with that, so perhaps I am missing some assumptions on the sellers part. That is fair enough. Silver dollars are .900 silver, which is 90%, regardless of the actual mass. I did not realize though that people consider the $1 face value of a dollar coin differently that $1 face value made up of other denominations. I learned something today and that is always good:)


The difference has to do with the weight of the respective coins. The % is the same but a silver dollar weighs more than a dollar face of other US silver. One dollar in face value of halves, quarters, or dimes is .715 troy ounce of silver. A silver dollar is .775 troy ounce.
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 Posted 02/03/2014  10:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jmkendall to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Grammatically speaking, the way the sentence is structured; the Morgans and Peace dollars refer back to the 90% Silver. It is reasonable to assume that is what he meant.

And while it is correctly pointed out that Dollars contain more Silver than the other coins; most dealers, myself included, include Silver Dollars in the term 90%.
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Darth Morgan's Avatar
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 Posted 02/03/2014  11:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Darth Morgan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Grammatically speaking, the way the sentence is structured; the Morgans and Peace dollars refer back to the 90% Silver. It is reasonable to assume that is what he meant.

And while it is correctly pointed out that Dollars contain more Silver than the other coins; most dealers, myself included, include Silver Dollars in the term 90%.


- The seller could have been much more clear in his wording, IMO. Yes, it was reasonable to question this, although I don't believe the seller was being deceitful. He just wasn't careful when writing his description.
Edited by Darth Morgan
02/03/2014 11:34 am
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BH1964's Avatar
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 Posted 02/03/2014  2:23 pm  Show Profile   Check BH1964's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add BH1964 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
...most dealers, myself included, include Silver Dollars in the term 90%.


Not trying to start an argument here but this is exactly the opposite of my experience. In my experience "90% silver" is not used to describe silver dollars; It refers to dimes, quarters, and halves only.

When the Craigslist seller posted "$15.50 per face dollar 90%", most experienced buyers would have immediately known that did not include the silver dollars (some of which were described as uncirculated).
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basebal21's Avatar
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 Posted 02/03/2014  4:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Am I missing something here? I fail to see how there could have been any savings when a 4 hour round trip drive is factored in.

I would agree though it sounds more like something that was poorly worded than trying to bait and switch. Bait and switch would have let you drive all that way and let you show up knowing you probably wouldnt want to leave empty handed.
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Susuman's Avatar
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 Posted 02/03/2014  4:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Susuman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The original poster of the ad actually called me back today and we had a long conversation. It turns out that he does have a genuine coin shop. In any case, we are now clear. I do not think that that there was a bait and switch. I did suggest, and he agreed, that the ad could be worded somewhat differently to clearly separate the apples and oranges.

basebal21 - no, you are not missing anything. For this type of transaction, it is too far unless I can purchase a large volume at a good price. It may also be worthwhile if I can gain a reasonably significant improvement in my collection at a reasonable cost. The persons location was not clear to me in my first conversation, particularly given a local area code and local (for me) Craigslist ad. The initial conversation also included a possible closer meeting place, though I think that the volume of respondents to his ad forced the decision for all meetings to be at his coin shop, which is considerably farther for me.

There are a couple things that I can get out of this whole episode and comments here on CCF:

When writing a brief online ad, be sure that it is clear and items are separated into defined categories. Do not assume that a reader, experienced or not, can sort out what you mean to say.

Based on the comments, there is a difference of opinion on what might constitute 90% junk silver. Most dealers would not include dollars, but some would. Perhaps this varies around the country. Back to point one, a clearly worded ad would get around potential misunderstandings on this and everybody would be happier (hopefully)
Edited by Susuman
02/03/2014 4:46 pm
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colonialjohn's Avatar
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 Posted 02/03/2014  4:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I would drive it if this your thing ... anybody with experience would bring this to auction or slab any in UNC ... DRIVE IT! The top condition Morgans? Think about it ... GREED IS GOOD.

John Lorenzo
United States
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CoinCollector2012's Avatar
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8137 Posts
 Posted 02/03/2014  5:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinCollector2012 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I contacted a seller on CraigsList about something coin related (I don't remember what) and I have not gotten a reply since.
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 Posted 02/03/2014  9:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jmkendall to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I agree with the OP's statement about a poorly written ad. But the people who talk about 90% silver are forgetting one important fact. Morgans and Peace dollars ARE 90% silver. Junk silver is sold by weight and numismatic premium; if any.

I get customers all day and all night (well; maybe not all night) who ask to buy "90% Silver". Does that include junk Morgans and Peace, sure it does. Do different coins sell for different rates in my junk box? Yep. You're going to pay more for Barber halves than you are for Franklins. More for Barber dimes than Rosies. Different Coins have different premiums; even in the Junk 90% category.
Edited by jmkendall
02/03/2014 9:04 pm
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BH1964's Avatar
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10982 Posts
 Posted 02/03/2014  10:36 pm  Show Profile   Check BH1964's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add BH1964 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Junk silver is sold by weight and numismatic premium; if any...Do different coins sell for different rates in my junk box? Yep. You're going to pay more for Barber halves than you are for Franklins. More for Barber dimes than Rosies. Different Coins have different premiums; even in the Junk 90% category.


We're talking about junk silver which by definition has no numismatic premium. Junk means bullion. I've bought and sold thousands of dollars of junk silver over the years and never encountered your method. Different strokes for different folks. If your customers pay more for 90% junk silver Barbers then more power to you. They won't get any more when they sell them because they are non-numismatic "junk". Also, I always buy at multiples of FV, not by weight. Every major bullion distributor sells by multiples of FV and Barbers are often included. Silver dollars never are.

I'm not trying to start an argument here and won't post to this thread further. This is an educational forum and I want to help people "buy smart".
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thq's Avatar
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 Posted 02/04/2014  05:52 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add thq to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yesterday I bought some junk 90 silver from a local dealer who sells both numismatic and bullion. He was completely out on dollars, and even the halves were at 24x face, due to strong demand. Quarters and dimes were at 15.8x face, and I bought a few full-weight quarters. His numismatic coins were very depleted compared to normal stock.

My reason for the visit was not mainly for coin-buying but to get a loupe. I spent $4 in gas to make the trip, which in effect increased the 15.8x to 17x for the quarters. After reading your post I have to wonder whether you considered your travel costs. Based on yesterday's situation here, I would at the least have purchased all his halves at 15.5x instead of making the trip for nothing.

You didn't mention what his dollars looked like. If he's a dealer why would you expect anything better than heavily worn, holed, damaged common dates? These WOULD sell at 15.5x primarily because they are underweight as dollars. A little caveat emptor might prevent an accusation of bait-and-switch.
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
Edited by thq
02/04/2014 06:02 am
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