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 Replies: 11 / Views: 2,523 |
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Pillar of the Community
2087 Posts |
Today the second slabbed coin in my collection arrived. I had purchased it in "The January 2014 NYINC Auction" It cost a lot more than I am usually prepared to pay (US$1097.00) A similar coin, unslabbed, is for sale on MA shops: http://www.ma-shops.com/loebbers/it...9021&lang=enAlthough Dirk Lobbers has had it on the market for at least a couple of years you can at least see the edge and identify that the coin is most likely from the Paris mint( more on that later) I am prepared to pay a lot for knowledge and my warped sense of Humor. I had already planned to ask both Stacks Bowers and PCGS some rather pointed but educational, for them, questions. On opening the package ( I escaped duty thankfully)when the coin arrived I discovered a new query, which is; are the stickers that stacks bowers has plastered over the slab acceptable? Also: should I remove them?   Now on to the educational questions( I will post PCGS' and Stacks Bowers replies here. Of Stacks Bowers I am going to ask the following: "Sir/Maam. In regards lot 10106 you described the lot as ND (1780-ICFA). This is really exciting as, you well know, this dates the item to the period 1781-1820 and indicates the coin was struck in the Vienna mint. What you may not realize is that the edge will be able to indicate whether the coin was struck in the period 1781-1811, or the period 1812- 1820. So I am emailing you in the hope that you can tell me which of those two periods the coin was struck in, alternately do you have photos of the edge so that I may make that determination my self?" Of PCGS: "Dear Sir/Maam I am the owner of slab number XXXXXX( when I find it out) as you are well away Maria theresa tahlers can be attributed to mint and era of minting by examine the edge markings of the coin. Unfortunately your slab makes examination of the edge impossible. Do you have photographs of the edge so that I can attribute the coin to the correct mint and time of striking?" Some of you may think My sense of humor is going too far but...I think dealers like Stacks Bowers and TPG,s like PCGS need to up their game. I suspect the coin is a 20th century strike ( making the ICFA claim a complete falsehood) based on the fact the blank is perfectly round. The interesting thing is I have previously seen fully struck MTT with markings similar to the "channel" seen on the second side. So seeing that edge is very important! Edited by austrokiwi
02/04/2014 06:54 am
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
Id personally take the stacks stickers off, I hate when people do that. On the bright side they do usually come off pretty clean.
They definitely have pictures of that one being in a secure plus holder, whether they got the edge is the question. It doesn't always work but playing around looking at the side at an angle can sometimes give you a good look at edge lettering if you dont have to read something really small with the newer holders like that one.
If you look in that gap between the edge of the coin and the circle of the holder you should see a little line going around if its the insert I think it has. If you look between that little line and the coin you can sometimes read whats on it.
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Pillar of the Community
 2087 Posts |
Quote:
Id personally take the stacks stickers off, I hate when people do that. On the bright side they do usually come off pretty clean. Thanks they came off easily as you anticipated. Quote:
If you look in that gap between the edge of the coin and the circle of the holder you should see a little line going around if its the insert I think it has. If you look between that little line and the coin you can sometimes read whats on it I am not clear on what you mean here I can't see any of the edge except at one angle.....and actually that is pretty scarey....it suggests they may be gaps in the edge marking that shouldn't be there.....in which case its likely to be a fake. However its very hard to make out anything on the edge. I will await PCGS's reply...I may well be arranging for it to go back to them for further authentication |
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
Quote:
it suggests they may be gaps in the edge marking that shouldn't be there.....in which case its likely to be a fake. However its very hard to make out anything on the edge They tried to make the inserts so you can see through them to the edges but on the coins around the size of ASEs/Maples/Ikes ect you usually just get a blurry mess of an image. Just playing around with some of mine there are a few I can see clear as day others I cant see anything. I guess some of those batches for the inserts come out more transparent than others. Forgot to mention is you shine a really bright flashlight (I use a surefire one) underneath the coin so just some of the light is reflecting through it can improve the edge image on some of them. They each seem to have their own individual sweet spot for that. Edited by basebal21
02/04/2014 5:36 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
627 Posts |
It wouldn't surprise me at all if they got the attribution wrong. Pretty typical for PCGS IMO for world coins. They often just take the "word" of the submitter and put it in a holder with whatever the coin description was that it was submitted with.
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Pillar of the Community
2087 Posts |
brg5658. I agree. I am having a bit of fun but on the serious side my aim is to educate. As I understand it PCGS, by slabbing this edged blank, have stated its authentic. Now I know they don't go in for attributing MTTs to mint and time of minting, however the skills necessary to authenticate this item demand that the grader must be able to attribute it to mint and period of minting. In this case considerable doubt about its authenticity must be expressed, and that slab can't, with out more info, be trusted. That said I am sure its authentic, but PCGS has provided nothing, other than their name, to prove its authentic. So far Stacks Bowers has not responded to me, so I have re-emailed pointing out this item will be used as a teaching point at the ANA summer seminar (Assuming there is enough interest in the presentation). PCGS gave me the standard "we are so busy" message. So I will wait a week or so more before "pushing" again. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
9792 Posts |
If you still have the sticker, I'd keep it for Provenance of the piece, place it on a card in case you ever decide to sell it. I would want this piece in a secure new style holder so the edges can be seen. I don't really know much about this coin design, but it's pretty interesting looking (from the link provided on the raw specimen). Hope you get the matter resolved and it's the coin you bought correctly attributed. Good luck.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013! ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1981, ANS, Early American Coppers Member (EAC), Colonial Coin Collectors Club member (C4), Conder Token Collector Club member (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS) member, Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) & Numismatic Bibliomania Society member (NBS), USMex, Member in good standing, 2¢ variety collector. See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440 |
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Pillar of the Community
2087 Posts |
So I get a reply from Stacks Bowers: Quote:
Thank You for your participation in our NYINC auction. We submitted this coin to PCGS to get graded for our consignor who pulled this coin out of a bag of 1780 Maria Theresa talers over 20 years ago. If my memory serves me right we went with what was on the PCGS holder. In the future if you have any questions about an item in one of our auctions please contact us prior to the auction so that we can better help you with matters such as this. Since the coin is no longer is our possession it makes it somewhat difficult to answer your question without having the item in hand. If you have any other questions please do not hesitate to ask. Sigh!! Perhaps its just me but the attitude suggested by such replies doesn't impress. Ok I have only purchased from Stacks Bowers a couple of times, and their procedures have confused me at times. That said the answer doesn't move either me or stacks Bowers ahead in the conversation Perhaps it was my wording of the request? I rarely make inquiries on auction items prior to the auction. On the 13th of December I snatched a major rarity from a local Auction house at a 10th of its value. Had I asked questions about the item before the auction there was a good chance the auction house might have realized its mistake. The other reaction is, I wasn't present in the auction The item was sent by post so now I have had a chance to examine the item....so of course now is the time I have the questions. IMHO for a coin auction house this is the time to stand behind your product and reputation. Of course I knew what I was buying and didn't believe one word of their description but the person replying to me didn't know that. With my inquiry this was the opportunity for Stacks Bowers to impress me with their professionalism. What do I get...."if I recall" If I was a grumpy customer who had just discovered a false identification( which their description was) I would now be hopping mad and itching for a fight!! I did get one of the answers I wanted but of course it has to be wrong. The person responding to me thinks the ICFA attribution was made by PCGS. NO PCGS didn't make that designation. The staff at Stacks Bowers still have the listing photos( I can access them) and can see what PCGS said. From what I can ascertain though its not stated directly it was the consigner who likely identified the Blank incorrectly. There is a reason I like small coin shops! All the staff in such shops have a love for the hobby, you get straight answers... including the simple and honest "I don't know" or "lets ask the boss" I am going to hunt out Bowers Email address and drop him a line. As I said it could just have been my wording. |
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
Quote:
From what I can ascertain though its not stated directly it was the consigner who likely identified the Blank incorrectly. Did I miss something? Werent you trying to confirm it with the questions? Now it sounds like youve come to the conclusion it just has to be wrong without being able to verify thats correct unless I missed where it had been confirmed. |
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Pillar of the Community
2087 Posts |
Quote:
Now it sounds like youve come to the conclusion it just has to be wrong without being able to verify thats correct unless I missed where it had been confirmed LOL sorry may be its my communication. Stacks bowers identified the coin as ND(ICFA) that specifies that the coin must have been produced earlier than 1820. What can be seen now with the coin is that it has been produced using a very modern method(most likely 20th century). Further more the coin is very new in looks. PCGS did not identify any cleaning issues, so I bleieve its reasonable to assume the coin hasn't been cleaned. I have highgrade pre-1820 MTTs in my collection and can assure you that after 194 years no coin is going to be as bright and toneless as the coin in the slab unless its been cleaned. So the ICFA designation is on balance of probabilities incorrect(95% confidence based on minting statistics). Looking at the coin in the slab and one similar for sale on MA shops, what is more likely is the coin is from the Paris mint which of course used S.F not ICFA. I suspect someone in Stacks just looked at Krause found the most attractive designation and used that without knowing what they were saying. I know its an MTT but no one knows where it was minted without that edge being examined. I will be using it as a teaching point in June/July and may well break it out of the slab then to prove or disprove my point. There is even the possibility its a fake, though I think that is unlikely. IF I didn't say it earlier. To confirm the coin is authentic the edge has to be identified. If the grader didn't have the skills to attribute the edge they didn't have the skills to authenticate it. The logic being they wouldn't know a genuine edge from a non genuine. Unless I am wrong, PCGS can not guarantee the authenticity of this item. IN this case Stacks Bowers, in sending the coin off to be slabbed, was wasting money. The market rate , raw, is around what I paid for it. I am chasing this issue mainly to educate not to be a Pain ! Edited by austrokiwi
02/07/2014 05:46 am
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
Lol THAT makes more sense. I was like what did I miss lol.
Obviously I cant see whats on the edge or even really the coins luster, I can really just tell its a coin with a drainage ditch running through the middle, but the luster may not be the tell tale sign youre thinking it is. All the TPGS allow "luster restoration" to an extent as long as it doesn't change the appearance of the coin. AKA you arent trying to remove ugly toning or a finger print and are just restoring luster without over doing it. Given that the world grading is still in its infancy I suspect the acceptable ranges are still being established. For instance if you dip a bust half you probably arent going to like the grade but a Barber or Merc dime on the other if you know what youre doing should be fine. Different series have a different range thats acceptable.
Given that you got the coin from a big time auction player I would be shocked if they didnt have someone on staff who knows just how far it could be pushed restoring the luster and keeping it out of a details slab. Of course I have no idea if they did it or not, but it is a possible explanation of your luster aside from mintage year.
Does PCGS do onsite grading shows in Europe anywhere around you? If you see them at a show you could probably get them to open it and check the edge or picture it if youre willing to pay. Being new maybe theyll do it anyway as another option to try and confirm it for sure without breaking it out.
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Pillar of the Community
2087 Posts |
Quote:
Does PCGS do onsite grading shows in Europe anywhere around you? If you see them at a show you could probably get them to open it and check the edge or picture it if youre willing to pay. Being new maybe theyll do it anyway as another option to try and confirm it for sure without breaking it out. Now that's an idea, Numismata Wien is in a couple of months so that is a real option. |
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Posted 02/04/2014 5:21 pm
