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Fake 1807 Portrait Real Mexico Mint Mark

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New Member

Canada
2 Posts
 Posted 02/26/2014  10:51 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add ChristianN to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I saw this item on ebay and noticed that this item and a similar item for sale by the same seller have a similar two dots in the zero of the date and I was wondering if from what you can see this might possibly be authentic? I understand that it is not likely to get a 100% diagnosis with such little information. I just thought that the two dots in both coins is suspicious.

Thank you for any information I am relatively new to coin collecting and look forward to discussions here in the future.

First Coin
http://www.ebay.com/itm/22137805199...51994&_rdc=1
ebay Item #221378051994

Second Coin
http://www.ebay.com/itm/22137806831...68313&_rdc=1
ebay Item #221378068313

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tokenmast's Avatar
United States
648 Posts
 Posted 02/26/2014  11:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tokenmast to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Good eye

and just below crowns, among many more

I like them
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MathieuMa's Avatar
France
1591 Posts
 Posted 02/27/2014  10:59 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MathieuMa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wow, you have excellent eyes :)
Those looked fishy indeed, but having the pair at the same time is excellent :D
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swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 02/27/2014  11:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have been following this guy for a while and his stuff comes from a distinctly new source that I have not seen before. Thank you for matching these two coins.

There are two possibilities - he has found a hoard of the Class 2 Silver counterfeit coins or we have a forger who is employing techniques that date back to the 1800s for making their coins. Either way not good for the buyers.

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MathieuMa's Avatar
France
1591 Posts
 Posted 02/28/2014  03:40 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MathieuMa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I've been following him as well. It's not the first time he sells crap, and in the middle of that crap he has some nice genuine stuffs.
He tried to sell a well known Carolus III (if I remember well) Santiago 8 reales as well, plus 4 reales RRCC (new world sea salvaged fake type), and other stuffs ...
I've won some of his genuine coins, but he is also shill bidding on his auction : this can be seen on the Felipe V 2 reales macuquina, which I just won - there is a bidder with a 1 rating, coming at the end and inflating price. When you check that bidder's infos, he did bid 80% on the time on this seller items, over 30 different lots, and did retract 3 winning bids. Nuf' said ...
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United States
1962 Posts
 Posted 02/28/2014  03:45 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Bob, this seller is a rather straight-forward, garden-variety ebay flipper... almost everything he offers he bought on ebay (plus maybe a few from elsewhere). I don't think he's necessarily an intentional sourcer/peddler of fakes or anything that nefarious... I think he simply shares a trait with some other collector-seller types out of Spain, which is that he isn't terribly good at and/or doesn't bother much with verifying that what he's buying/selling is legitimate material.

E.g., for those keep a close eye on such things, notice who his very first buying feedback is from... says it all
****CORRECTION - it's actually just the bottom one right now on the first page of his buying feedback (200 per page) - "duss..."

I can't find these exact pieces, but there's one particular seller (also out of Spain) who's sold some 8R with a similar overall "look" that I think he may have obtained them from.
Edited by realeswatcher
02/28/2014 04:11 am
Valued Member
moneditis's Avatar
Spain
110 Posts
 Posted 03/18/2014  05:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add moneditis to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Unfortunately already empty links
Who is this ebay seller?
Thanks a lot
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MathieuMa's Avatar
France
1591 Posts
 Posted 03/18/2014  06:46 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MathieuMa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The seller is yeimi-vigo - I've given him a neutral rating yesterday, as I suspect he is cheating with a secondary account ...
Which has only 2 stars, did 80 bids, 75 or which are on his coins, with 4 retractations.
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NewSpainLearner's Avatar
United States
55 Posts
 Posted 04/01/2014  03:40 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NewSpainLearner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Almost bought a columnario from him a week or so ago, supposedly from a ship wreck. There was something that didn't look quite right, plus it went over my budget anyways. Probably good I didnt win :)
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MathieuMa's Avatar
France
1591 Posts
 Posted 04/01/2014  03:47 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MathieuMa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Oh yes :)
Actually, she has genuine coins as well (most are), but she is not a professional - so you have to be sure of what you are bidding on (or face the hard-to-do return process if there is an issue ...).
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MathieuMa's Avatar
France
1591 Posts
 Posted 05/12/2014  5:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MathieuMa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Does anyone have copies of this auction ? I've seen the same seller (under another name) re-list those elsewhere.
Same diagnostic, excess metal inside the 0 of the date (among other things)

This time, I saved the pictures :
Fake-1807-Portrait-Real-Mexico-Mint-Mark
Fake-1807-Portrait-Real-Mexico-Mint-Mark
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swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 05/12/2014  9:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Mathieu Nice photographs of an obvious (at least to me Class 2 counterfeit/restrike). The coin has far too many oddities to be passed off as simply due to minting issues.

I noticed an interesting article in the " Numismatic News" that my wife picked up today at the PO. It is in "Facts about Fakes" on page 16. (That is always the first feature I look for.) The author F. Michael Fazzari is and has been for years a professional authenticator who tries to do his job in the best manner possible. He uses a "scientific approach" which I was also taught in the early 1970s as being the future of numismatic authentication.

Near the outset of the article he speaks about pre-1970s authentication as dependent upon

Quote:
...measurements such as weight, diameter, tonal quality, and specific gravity testing for composition....

which were in use long before he (or I) became an authenticator.

He then mentions using a binocular microscope in authentication which was a key component of my own training starting in 1972 by one of the earliest supporters of using technology and science to our advantage. Michael then goes on to indicate how a scientific approach based on measurement confirmation of details based on things like die punch shapes became a journey of discovery for himself. I took the same trip and we are on the same station platform right now.

But what I really want to focus in on is the impact of the work that John Lorenzo, Gord Nichols and I have had on the professional authenticators even before the book is out. The basis of our book on Portrait counterfeits is that science plus history needs to be fully employed along with specialized expertise in SINGLE VARIETES to make authentication of older forgeries in particular "complete".
On page 18 of the article he says

Quote:
...it can be very difficult to know what a genuine coin should look like (unless you are a specialist) and I fear many contemporary counterfeit world coins have achieved a status of authenticity due to lax standards of authentication by some in the past. Recently I spoke with one of the authors of a soon-to-be published book on contemporary counterfeit 8 reales (dollar size) coins. He concurred with my opinion that many of these fakes have been certified as genuine.


I think the source is obvious at this point. But he reveals the fallacy that most collectors operate under. No Third Party Grader has or actually can have expertise on staff for confirmation of 100% authenticity. He does suggest that older and newer tactics must be merged to combat the new forgeries.

He then passes on his "secret" which I have also used since the 1970's which is to study fonts, die lines, scratches and breaks when authenticating 8 reales. This is the study that lets me state unequivocally that the coin before us is FAKE. I know - he may know but now before the field of study moves on, we need to pass the knowledge of dated methods along to EVERYONE.

He is releasing his secret now because the topic is virtually moot. Science recognizes that new replication techniques made possible by digital information storage and retrieval can make (or soon will make) cheap copies accurate enough to fool all of the older detection techniques.

What is not obvious in his treatment is that the older techniques still apply to counterfeits made before 1970 - the effective start of the modern era of CAF (computer assisted forgery). I, within the context of my book, am far more concerned with the older counterfeits that are hiding in plain site in TPG slabs, dealer inventories and collections.

I can still see them as clearly as I did in 1980, 1990, 2000 or last week. They do NOT change over time only the modern forgeries are changing methods of manufacture. In our book one of the facts I chose to highlight was a simple and obvious statement most people miss:


Quote:
No Additional Contemporary Circulating Counterfeit Portrait Eight-Reales will ever be made.


Obvious but we often miss that fact when hunting in the forest of forgery. We do not see the old counterfeits if we focus only on the newer methods of detection to the exclusion of the older. This also applies to Silver restrike (counterfeits) as well. Being made before 1930 the new detection methods are not needed to see those.

We just have to look.

So it is time to disclose the secret methods of the 1970s - they are becoming out of date for the best forgers. However, I do not advocate ONLY using the new tools but also the older ones because they still work especially well for our target group of collectable and collected forgeries.

Just as many authenticators actually dropped Specific Gravity testing from the tool box when the binocular microscope splashed on the scene, we need at times to make sure our tool kit is complete - and in use - not just up to date popular ones.

I know that speaking out on this is not popular with the powers that be - those that make a living inside the business and who stand to lose most on the exposure of the facts.

For some people the book will be enough but for others it will be dismissed as only hearsay. If you test my throries in these cases scientifically the data will make the confirmation of silver restrikes obvious eventually.

Some - perhaps most - but not all of these coins will be shown to be late date fakes. I expect to be long dead before my theories become accepted fully - I just hope the profit driven elements do not try to silence the "message" before other zealots like myself, only younger, will take up the challenge.
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