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How Does This Merc Dime Get A VF30?

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edweather's Avatar
United States
7375 Posts
 Posted 03/09/2014  3:54 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add edweather to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Does NGC take the better side and go from there. The reverse is nice, possibly VF, but the obverse doesn't look better than F15. What am I missing? Help please. Thanks. ed


http://www.ebay.com/itm/33114892226...ht_116wt_900
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zxcccxz's Avatar
Canada
5417 Posts
 Posted 03/09/2014  4:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add zxcccxz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Weak strike probably.
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macmercury's Avatar
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5822 Posts
 Posted 03/09/2014  5:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add macmercury to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Possibly graded either Monday or Friday. LOL!

Nice even wear for that coin thought.
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Classic Coins's Avatar
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940 Posts
 Posted 03/09/2014  5:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Classic Coins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The most generous grade I would give this is a split grade of VG-10/VF-20. There's no way this should have made it into a VF-30 slab.
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DVCollector's Avatar
United States
10045 Posts
 Posted 03/09/2014  5:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DVCollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Why does grading on key coins err towards overgrading--and seldom the other way around? I've seen A LOT of F12 1877 IHCs graded into VF.
Edited by DVCollector
03/09/2014 6:11 pm
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westernsky's Avatar
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7613 Posts
 Posted 03/09/2014  5:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add westernsky to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think it was graded on a Friday...at about 4:45pm.
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yingyang's Avatar
Canada
1823 Posts
 Posted 03/09/2014  5:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add yingyang to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think it was switched with a lower grade, happens all the time.
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DVCollector's Avatar
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10045 Posts
 Posted 03/09/2014  6:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DVCollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
"switched with a lower grade"--you mean they carefully cracked the holder, removed the VF30, and then put it back together?
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edweather's Avatar
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7375 Posts
 Posted 03/09/2014  7:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add edweather to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the feedback. The coin checks out ok on the NGC site, and even had photos. Frankly the ebay lister's photos are better than NGC's. Buy the coin, not.....

I know of a F12 that looks almost as good as this one.
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basebal21's Avatar
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 Posted 03/09/2014  8:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Key dates are graded against the others available in that date and mint mark due to the rarity. What would be necessary for a vf 30 from say a 44 p merc has no bearing on the 16 d grading as an example. You see it in other series that have rare dates like that. Theyll also do it when the quality just isn't great overall like with ikes the p and d mints have different standards. A ms 66 77 d ike would likely be a 67 maybe 68 if it was a 71 p as an example.

With the key date grading its really more about ranking it against it peers.

With that said it still looks generous. Probably said it was a weak strike and then gave it a bump for eye appeal too.

Cracking coins out and switching them is as close to impossible as it gets. The slabs are designed to crack and break and the edges arent resealable when trying to open them. I dont believe in saying anythings impossible, but being able to do that is pretty close.
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melodyandzoe's Avatar
United States
69 Posts
 Posted 03/09/2014  8:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add melodyandzoe to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Agree with basebal21. Good info.
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DVCollector's Avatar
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10045 Posts
 Posted 03/09/2014  8:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DVCollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
With the key date grading its really more about ranking it against it peers.
There are experts in coin series who openly disagree that "rank" or rarity should affect grade. Honestly, when a step up in grade can mean $500-1000 on a sale, it's easy deduce why it is done.
Edited by DVCollector
03/09/2014 9:01 pm
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edweather's Avatar
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 Posted 03/09/2014  9:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add edweather to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There shouldn't be grading 'on-a-curve' so to speak. I've seen plenty of real high grade examples.....just check out Heritage.
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basebal21's Avatar
13014 Posts
 Posted 03/09/2014  9:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
There are experts in coin series who openly disagree that "rank" or rarity should affect grade. Honestly, when a step up in grade can mean $500-1000 on a sale, it's easy deduce why it is done.


Everyone entitled to their own opinions, theres experts that openly would agree with it as well.

In the end it really makes no difference. If the finest known is a ms 64 or a ms 68 its still the finest known and will command a price showing that. The adaptation of the current grading scale itself is really nothing more than a ranking system. Things get a vf 35 because theyre better than a 30 and not good enough to be a 40. There are of course standards that need to be met for each grade level but at the end of the day its really just ranking them. If it wasnt for that "ranking" bad/good/amazing would be an acceptable system.

As far as why its done, TPGS dont benefit in anyway inflating the value, in fact theyre actually harmed by it because its a greater liability number they have out there and puts them at risk of having that resubmitted in the future and grading lower where they would have to make a pay out on it. Not really a great business plan for something they got 32 dollars to grade.

John Albanese actually discussed that very thing about market grading in an interview a while ago from his days as a grader at NGC. When Morgans were fetching crazy prices in the 80s things that should have been 65s were getting 64s because they werent comfortable calling it an 800 dollar coin.

IMO grading should always be relative against the other coins with that date and mint mark. If not everything with an O mint mark before 1900 is automatically subpar to any other mint due to their equipment.

Others will disagree with me and thats fine everyones certainly entitled to their own opinion. But TPGs do grade rarities off of different standards than common dates where high quality coins are readily available
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DVCollector's Avatar
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10045 Posts
 Posted 03/09/2014  10:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DVCollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
IMO grading should always be relative against the other coins with that date and mint mark.
Honestly, that sounds more like an index of value than a grade.

Quote:
As far as why its done, TPGS dont benefit in anyway inflating the value
But it's a business, there's always a money angle. Seriously--it does make me wonder when keys are more routinely overgraded than undergraded.

I guess I'm just a little fed up with TPG grades. They seem to err on overgrading every slabbed coin I own--and not just keys. I won't nitpick over which coins should be accurately graded--and which should be "market graded". The whole issue hammers home that numbers on a plastic holder don't mean much. /soapbox
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basebal21's Avatar
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 Posted 03/09/2014  10:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Honestly, that sounds more like an index of value than a grade.


Theres truth to that, I see it as basically the same anyway. Part of the grading equation is subjective anyway and while the difference between 20 and 40 is pretty obvious, 20 and 25 not so much.

At the very least mints should have their own standards within reason. Something shouldnt be a 70 just because its the best known, but grading New Orleans mint Seated dimes the same as Philly would create a big bias against O coins famous for weak strikes. You just arent working with the same starting point for how much there is that can be worn off of the detail.

I should add I only believe this for classics. Modern mints are all good enough to have one standard across the board now


Quote:
Seriously--it does make me wonder when keys are more routinely overgraded than undergraded.


They just have a different standard for them. From the TPG point of view their money angle would be to reduce the liability with lowers grades if they were only interested in the money aspect. 32 dollars a coin takes a lot of coins to recover one 3200 dollar over graded coin.
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