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Looking For Help With An 1878-S

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Author Previous TopicReplies: 10 / Views: 2,080Next Topic  
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cdnmace's Avatar
United States
134 Posts
 Posted 03/13/2014  3:35 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add cdnmace to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Hi All,

I have a bit of head scratcher (for me at least) here. 1878-S (Short Nock), with broken fourth star. Doubled D in Dollar. I thought I had narrowed it down to 17, 17A, 17B or 17C. The problem is: I cannot find any denticle impressions. It may be due to wear, condition etc. Or I'm just WAY off.

What I have found interesting about this piece is the die scratch at the base of the hair. But even more so, the massive amount of pitting in the right portion of the reverse wreath -- To be honest, in-hand, what I'm calling pitting actually resembles welding slag -- it's thick and quite abundant in that area. Sponge-like almost.

To add to that, there is also a small portion (please forgive the photos) of the stem of the wreath which resembles melted metal, for a lack of better terms.

I'd be appreciative of any guidance here on VAM direction if anyone has any insight. Especially if I've led myself down the wrong path. I've been over and over VAM World... perhaps I'm missing something that's right in front of my face? But if any of these things ring a bell with anyone, again, direction would be appreciated.

Cheers.

Looking-For-Help-With-An-1878-S

Looking-For-Help-With-An-1878-S

Looking-For-Help-With-An-1878-S

Looking-For-Help-With-An-1878-S

Looking-For-Help-With-An-1878-S

Looking-For-Help-With-An-1878-S

Looking-For-Help-With-An-1878-S

Looking-For-Help-With-An-1878-S
Edited by cdnmace
03/13/2014 3:38 pm
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 03/13/2014  9:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Fascinating coin. I'm "kind of" comfortable with calling it the B2d reverse based on the D - you'll have to confirm your comfort with the doubling based on personal observation - and that would limit us to VAM-17 or 66. We have to be comfortable with that D first.

Have a look at LIBERTY for the line in IB known to VAM-66. How's the wear/polishing level in the lower hair?

The denticle impressions and stuff known for the VAM-17 reverse are sort of negotiable. They're very prominent on this VAM, probably the most prominent in the series, but still subject to wear and multiple die states are known. Also, poke your nose at VAM-114. This one is still evolving - the reverse die got around.
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Lucky Cuss's Avatar
United States
4883 Posts
 Posted 03/13/2014  9:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Lucky Cuss to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Some of the things you're describing are characteristic of a cast counterfeit. Not saying it's necessarily so, but have you at least weighed it?
Colligo ergo sum
Valued Member
cdnmace's Avatar
United States
134 Posts
 Posted 03/14/2014  08:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cdnmace to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the input!

I re-checked for the IB line of the 66, and... negative. Not sporting the line. Spent some time with the 114. Solid suggestion. However, no go on the double eye-lid and nothing resembling the spike. I checked the discovery pics and I don't see the die scratches in the hair that my piece is displaying... Which, right or wrong, again takes me back to the 17's. All of which are b2d's. I am 100% confident in the D being 'the one'. But... lol

Per the counterfeit caution. Excellent suggestion/observation. The thought crossed my mind when I first noted the pitting/slag/stem melted appearance. Date, lettering, remainder of the piece et al. would make it the best knock-off I've ever personally seen. Around here in Michigan, though, the knock-offs are almost always CC's; if other dates, SO bad that... well, they're bad. Really, really bad. That, and I conferred with some trusted personal friends. We're more than confident that it is legit. A sincere thank you for pointing that out, though. That is a caution that should be given more often. Especially to us 'reformed copper guys'. lol

On the note of this mystery pitting/slag 'stuff': I just realized I forgot a photo yesterday, and to add this 'stuff' is also visible in the lower right tail feathers as well. This is likely of no assistance (sure hasn't been to me), but just thought I'd put that out there in-case someone with a similar piece strolls past this thread.

Thanks again!

Looking-For-Help-With-An-1878-S
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dave700x's Avatar
United States
10625 Posts
 Posted 03/14/2014  09:01 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dave700x to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I suggest you send it to VSS and have John Baumgart take a look at it. If it's really a 17, it would be a nice one to have in a VAMslab.
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 03/14/2014  10:25 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I suggest you send it to VSS and have John Baumgart take a look at it. If it's really a 17, it would be a nice one to have in a VAMslab.


If it's a 17, the pitting (that's die rust, I think, cdnmace) represents an unknown die state. And if anyone's capable of taking detail images sufficient to VAMworld's highest standard, it's John.

I like Dave's idea, cdnmace. VSS is thought of highly around here and by the VAMming world, and for $6 plus shipping/insurance you can't go wrong. I normally prefer keeping attributions in-house for the benefit of the membership, but this one's a candidate for professional help IMO. John Baumgart is as "professional" as it gets when it comes to VAMming.

http://varslab.com/
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cdnmace's Avatar
United States
134 Posts
 Posted 03/14/2014  2:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cdnmace to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I will take this advice, and act on it... and report back when the mystery is solved.

Cheers, all!
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 03/14/2014  5:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Excellent. John will be able to attribute it, and if he feels it's something different, his word carries a ton of weight in the specialty.
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morganhead's Avatar
United States
39 Posts
 Posted 03/16/2014  11:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add morganhead to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
VAM 1B LDS is what I think you have there. The EDS does not have the rust/spalling on the reverse. You wouldn't know they were the same die except for the other markers.
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cdnmace's Avatar
United States
134 Posts
 Posted 03/19/2014  2:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cdnmace to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Aaaaaaaad...BOOM. He nails it! Thanks! And thanks all for the tip about Mr. Baumgart; that is a resource that I will use in the future. Thanks again!!

Cheers!
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morganhead's Avatar
United States
39 Posts
 Posted 03/20/2014  8:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add morganhead to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Your very welcome. Its one of my favorite dates and one I collect regularly.
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