Identification Help (Ferdinand & Isabella 1R)

Thanks Eric, I figured something along the lines on the three that are basically worthless. What is a jeton if you don't me asking? Does it have any numismatic values?

Thx, Mike

Thanks for sharing. I saw the same coin as a Japanese telephone coin priced for 25 us cents a few weeks ago at a fair.

What about a jeton: it is mostly ancient play money, sold at fairs.

Hello Sap,

Appreciate the info on the Jetons. Looked the sites over that you gave the links for and the first site in your reply, photo # 27 has a partial match to the one I have and the arrows represent the 5 states of Union. See the following quote:

"Jeton on the negotiations for the Union of Utrecht, dated 1578. The articles of the Union were signed on January 23, 1579. The sheaf of five arrows on the obverse represents the first five States of the Union; the sheaf of seven arrows became the symbol of the Republic of the Seven United Provinces. The jeton was struck in Antwerp (mintmark hand)."

I'll hang on to this one and keep looking. If anyone runs across an exact match of what I have please let me know.....

Again, thanks for all the info.....

By the way, made some excellent buys yesterday in an antique shop....made some BIG additions to my collection.....happy hunting.

Mike

Bob, are you referring to coin #3? That's the one that looked like Fernando V / Isabel I design to me...

~Roman

dutch4

There are a few things that are absolutely certain. First and foremost, the coin is a part of the plata (silver) series of coins that included the 1,2,4 and 8R denominations. The design matches that series. The copper and gold series both use totally different designs. So this purports to be a silver coin from the reign of Ferdinand and Isabella. The legend however is totally wrong - even the shapes of some letters are simply incorrect (reversed Z for example) and the word King appears to be spelled REC instead of REX. The legend is Latin and the letter font is Gothic. To me the fact that spelling was done so poorly says the copy was made for an "uneducated" group. This group could be period peasants who were illiterate or Modern novice coin collectors who don't know what an original coin looks like. If it were a Modern Numismatic forgery then the forger would have gotten the lettering better. So you have either a Contemporary Circulating Counterfeit or a Modern Tourist copy. Those are at the Polar extremes of value when it comes to counterfeits.

Unfortunately it is impossible at this stage to tell which type you have.

Based on the diameter 25.5 mm - you would appear to have a copy of a One Real coin. Cayon shows 1R coins that range from 23 to 29 mm with an average of 25 mm. The 2R coins range from 27 to 33 mm with the average being 30 mm. However, based on your weight of 5.98 grams, it is closer to the weight of a 2 Real coin. During the reign of Ferdinand V and Isabella the silver real was fixed at 3.35 grams with the 2R at 6.7 grams. The Denomination is not always shown on originals so the forger can hardly be faulted for not being clear in that regard. There is a figure that looks like a reversed C where the denomination would normally appear. I suspect based on these facts that your copy was likely passed as a 1R. The 1R coins are numbered 2488 to 2611 in Cayon's book "Las Monedas Espanolas". That means there are 123 types distributed among 7 different mints. However, because the legends on your coin are terribly misspelled - I can't get a match. But since I presume it is a counterfeit that is NOT critical.

I also checked Barrera's book "Moneda Falsa Espanola" which includes the period back to the Reyes Catolicos and find there are examples of both Modern and contemporary counterfeits known to exist in copper and bronze. Modern Numismatic counterfeits are worth just a bit more than Modern Tourist copies but not too much in any event (about $10 my price). The listed contemporary circulating counterfeits #s 9 and 10 have a catalog value of $60 in average condition (2000). So they are clearly worth identifying. There is a lengthy entry (in Spanish) discussing a large emanation of counterfeit "Plata" varieties being discovered in 1497. Not all of the types in this group are listed. The modern counterfeit has NO catalog value according to Barrera.

I would still like to see the edge to have a better feeling for what you have here. Based on your description it sounds like a cast copy or possibly an electrotype. Now, unfortunately, a cast could be either a contemporary or a recently made coin. The electrotype would be modern. The best of the listed period counterfeits is a copper coin struck between silver foils. The silver foil adheres long enough to pass the fake but usually peels off. I can not see any trace of the foil - is there any indication of a "lost layer" when you examine the coin closely?

Final comment - a reeded edge would be all wrong for a period counterfeit - they were PLAIN edges.

I will certainly try to look at a video. I have no idea what capabilities this PC has in that regard. So please try.

I can be emailed at swamperbob22@aol.com