War Of Independence Mva/1811&lcm Double Validation Stamp

Well, if the LCM counterstamp is actually OVER the MVA counterstamp, it changes the whole story. My assumption of it being a counterfeit was based on the picture in ebay and the description of the seller, who himself states that the MVA stamp is on top of the LCM stamp.

This at least takes one worry of my mind, which was related to the high quality and originality of the MVA/1811 stamp which I considered to be fake. But if it is good, it's one thing less to be scared of. Each fake is one too many, so I'm actually happy that I was wrong!

Definitely a nice coin then and a good buy - and a not so smart choice by the seller to go through ebay. You are right that it would be a four-figure coin if auctioned through Heritage or Ponterio.

Firstly, John, did your inner monologue go off and running here, or are you indeed referencing a thread about this another forum?

Anyway... Counterstamped WOI issues are decidedly not my thing, so I refrained from this initially, but now this has piqued my interest :->

My one prior thought was that those scratches on the bust side do look old... and if a CAST 8R is indeed genuine, it WOULD by its nature have some stamps, right? Kind of a peripheral point, but something to consider. What

Now, I understand exactly the analysis of what we're seeing that you're relaying from Max - it's certainly plausible. I'm NO expert at all on overstamped issues... so if the following reflects unfamiliarity with how overlapping marks should present, so be it. However, just to play devil's advocate, regarding the intersection area of the two stamps... If we tried to support the initial assumption that the MVA 1811 stamp incorrectly went over the L.C.M. stamp, couldn't you argue that those apparent indents in the MVA 1811 divider (and on the leg of "A") are rather the result of impacting spots that were simply already pushed down by the LCM stamp?

Also... looking at the "11" of the 1811 date... if LCM was done after MVA, all of the final digit 1 and part of the 3rd digit 1 should have been impacted by "positive" relief portions of the LCM stamp (which creates the blank space between letter "L" and "C" on the coin). Why did the "11" then not get smooshed down more?

Bigger picture - I note that you relayed Max recalling a similar example with weak LCM - but isn't such a weak LCM rather atypical? It is at least compared to what I see in auction archives (which, granted, is going to skew towards "nicer" examples).

Like I said, don't know these much more than what I research on the fly, and am not a counterstamp collector/expert/afficionado... just some observations.

I was the second underbidder ... and I did assume it was real ... but after DOS MUNDOS indicated the LCM was under I thought the same thing as did this collector (C4 Member and friend) until Max confirmed his suspicions it was REAL. I did not think OVER ... I just assumed the LCM was earlier and forgot the dates on the Monoclova host coins were NOT CHANGED ... either way $400+ was my max ... had to pay for my A. Smith auction coins ... <BG>. Realeswatcher ... I am surprised a collector of your breadth is not into WOI ... at least in a minor capacity ... its obviously one of the top rungs in Mexican Coin Collecting ... no big deal. Some recent finds was that retrograde LVO ... as I told you I confirmed two other auction specimens from my current growing library ... also a General Vicente on a DEBASED Ag alloy ... yep ... that me causing problems again like the Sheffield and Debased Ag Chihuahua 8Rs in my 9/2013 MNA Paper ... I am also seeing alot of STRANGE alloys withese 1914 Durango pieces like a silver plated copper issues? Well at least from the E-Bay photo ... which lot ... don't you worry about such matters ... <VVBG>.

Its unquestionably LCM (Lorenzo #3 of #17) over MVA 1811 now that its in my possession.

We do see Gerber:86: With LCM and MVA 1812 but separate;

We see Pradeau:1893 with LVS over MVA1811, and

We see Pradeau: 1891 & 1892 with LCM and MVA 1811 & 1812 respectively but again separate.

Just shows the MVA 1811 the mint stamp is applied at the end of the minting process & just more evidence that LCM is a northern Royalist stamp - nothing new ...

At my current research level it's the ONLY KNOWN LCM over a mint stamp Monoclova 1811 or 1812 known - until someone corrects me on this observation.

26.9 grams - good weight; 40.36 mm a little on the large size for a cast 8R and good Pt/Au trace quantities (i.e., 0.1-1.0%). Non-regal edge (i.e., non circles or squares) but not plain but light infrequent 45* diagonal cuts 360* around.

The full LCM counterstamp can not be fully viewed but its dimensions are 5 X 12 mm and has the semi-colon right side feature (#3 of #17 known types in my notes) - as with Keech I have verified two more than Krause with (17) recorded LCM counterstamp types.

See the 2R 1811 Zacetecas LVO: Pradeau Plate XIX #8 as the plate match based on current visual components, right side semi-colon and physical dimensions (5 X 12 mm).

John Lorenzo
United States