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 Replies: 22 / Views: 3,218 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Dos Mundos - Genuine? A friend of mine purchased it? I say yes. http://www.ebay.com/itm/SPANISH-MEX...047675.l2557At this point I seen several D/S's with this combination as in the Pradeau Collection and Gerber. So far and I have not YET created a database of WOI Validation pedigree of Validation double stamps I have noticed that for MVA 1811 its OVER the LCM if they do overlap so the LCM was applied FIRST to the host cast coin. Have you seen an LCM over an MVA Validation ... say the later MVA1812 type? No big deal and should not be surprising ...just asking. JPL |
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
Oh, I didn't saw that one ... I understand now, he only ships to the US. I don't know much about those, but to me without much informations, by its look, it seems genuine. I long to read more about it  Edited by MathieuMa
03/22/2014 04:22 am
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Valued Member
Spain
110 Posts |
First time I seeread about one of those.
I would say that this 8 reales is not made in the Mexico ceca/mint
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
Those are indeed cast emergency issues, they were made from Mexico coin molds, but not in Mexico :)
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Valued Member
Spain
110 Posts |
Thank you for the clarification MathieuMa
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Valued Member
Germany
194 Posts |
The original coin was made in the little town of Monclova in the north of Mexico by Royalist forces in the early stage of the War for Independence.
They are cast copies of regal coins. Just like the Chihuahua issues, but without the separate mint mark and date that were placed in the mold at the Chihuahua mint. In order to validate them, a stamp was used which reads "MVA" for Monclova and "1811" or "1812" for the date.
Thus, the "MVA/1811" stamp is actually the mint mark! Which means that it was placed on the coin immediately at the time of production.
As you can easily see, on this coin the "MVA/1811" stamp is OVER the "LCM" stamp, and this is chronologically impossible. This is simply the quickest and cleanest proof that this coin is a forgery!
I have seen this coin on the internet, and I had already entered the stamp in my collection of pictures of fake countermarks. Unfortunately, I did not see a way to contact the winning bidder. If it is a friend of yours, please tell him to return it.
Although it might make a great study piece for an XRF analysis. Let's see how good the forgers were at reproducing the original alloy!
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1757 Posts |
OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH MYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY GODDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I was the second underbidder! What was I thinking! Even after watching Max Keech talk 6 times! on CD. Realeswatcher ... I am NOW bent over ... PLEASE ... three swift kicks in my REAR!
John Lorenzo
United States
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
The 1804 cast host coin produced from a previously struck 1804 MOTHER COIN in/around 1811 and then stamped MVA 1811 which is a WHOLE singular punch (not TWO parts) in which both the MVA and 1811 parts MUST be parrallel to each other <BG> - STILL DUMB in NJ-USA!
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
I knew that I had to study those before even thinking about buying them :P
(or at least, check it out with Ralf before :D )
Nice lesson, again !
Edited by MathieuMa
03/24/2014 2:01 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Mat ... the learning curving in the War of Independence is HUGE ... so far I have been lucky ... so far <VVBG>.
There is no real RELIABLE reference book and many of the pieces in the auction catalouges are fakes, incomplete descriptions by inept auction catalougers, contemporary counterfeits, modern fakes and no real authority to compare the LAST TWO (CCs and modern) ... but I am LOVING IT! <VVBG>.
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
This period is indeed very interesting, hopefully for me, as of now, I've not started counterstamps - yet :D
There is many cataloging left to do, cleaning the bads from the good, studying contemporary counterfeit (and differences from coins made from each side of the opponents, sometime with the same material, other times trying to cheat weight, and fiat money ...)
It's indeed very challenging, and historically very interesting :) My first thing to do is to read a bit more about this era history I think ...
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Mat - its such an UNEXPLORED area that the POSITIVES outweigh the NEGATIVES by a large margin ... just saying about the WOI coinage ...
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Valued Member
Germany
194 Posts |
The Monclova issues are a great example for the problems of the War for Independence period. They are scarce to rare, but available enough to make a detailed study possible if one set out his mind to do it.
Spanish coin cataloguers have understood that the MVA stamp is actually a mint mark and not a counterstamp, and the Monclova should be considered a mint of the Spanish empire. US catalogs (OK, let's name it - Krause) list it as a Royalist countermark and have been unable to update their knowledge and cataloguing, and have thus caused much confusion with Northern American collectors for decades.
The MVA stamp, especially the more common "MVA/1812", can be found on coins as late as 1821, which has caused everybody to believe that the stamp was used after 1812 to further validate emergency issues. But in fact all these coins are later Chihuahua (maybe even Durango) designs stamped over the MVA mint stamp, which means that they used an old MVA coin as planchet and struck their actual design over it.
Which in turn means that pretty much all coins listed in Krause as host coins for the MVA counterstamp are misattributed. If you have, for example, a 1817 Chihuahua coin with an MVA/1812 stamp, Krause would list it as MVA counterstamp on a Chihuahua 1817 host. Yet it's a Chihuahua 1817 coin struck over an 1812 Monclova coin and should correctly be listed under Chihuahua!
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Yes - Dos Mundos and this was an important part that Max Keech was bringing out in his MNA talk that all these validation counterstamps or in this case MINT MARK were between the years of 1811-1813. Maybe 1814 but no real evidence during this year yet? Interesting your connection to Spain cataloguers which being a Royalist mintmark (Monoclova) in some ways these could be placed under Spain in Krause. Yes the MVA1811 being MORE RARE than MVA1812. You know Alfonso (speeling?) of Spain (Coin Dealer) he had several for $750 each at the NYITL but I bought an incredible LVO KM-190 8R in FULL XF (strong central devices - of course) from MCC for basically the same price. He (Alfonso) also had a LVS/LCM double validation for $650 but it sold when I contacted him one month later in Spain for my next budget purchase. I own a MVA/1812. Looking for MVA/1811 ... Dunnigan has them but they are over $1,000. On my want list ... yes the overstrike ERRORS in Krause with Monoclova host coins ... still is this not a buyers advantage? Maybe ... <VVBG>. THe key is to remember is the validation/mint stamps are 1811-1813(4) only and with the Monoclovas the host coin dates were NOT CHANGED!
Next lesson ... <VVBG>.
John Lorenzo
United States
Edited by colonialjohn
03/25/2014 08:16 am
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
colonialjohn : we want pictures ;) :D
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Bopple-WRONG. John Lorenzo-WRONG. Confirmed by a guy named MAX in some dry and hot SW U.S. state ... as genuine.
Ralph - not to worry - this genius Chris Stevens jumps around alot. He has the #2 Collection of Kleeberg CC2R's in the country behind Richard August and ahead of this guy named JPL at #3. In andaround 2017 he will be gone ... I HOPE!
Here is the thread ... he probably will not sell ... just rubbing it into JPL ... I did notice the cartouche break at the lower right ... still a weak LCM OVER the MVA/1811 ... it happened before in Pradeau ... now that its REAL ... two days ago obviously Ralph I thought that overlap double ctstmp in Pradeau was also a FAKE. Live and learn ... the kid from Massachuseets is right and NJ & Germany are WRONG <VVBG>... here we go ...
Taxi Steve!?!?! LOL.... Probably not the worst analogy ever. BUT.... while jumping around learning as much as I can about whatever interests me, I was always secretly devoted and amassing my primary collections.
Anyway... I wasn't trying to torture you. I really wanted you to figure it out. I HAD FAITH IN YOU.
The lower left leg of "A" in MVA is clearly 'depressed'... Picture the physical stamping process and look ONLY at where the stamps intersect.
The "border" between the two blocks for MVA and 1811. They are bisected! CUT with obvious grooves from where the LCM stamp was hammered into the MVA stamp!
I never disputed anything you said related to "the rules of WOI". You were right! The LCM stamp CANNOT come before MVA. And it didn't. I was fooled (as was EVERYONE) to think MVA was the last stamp applied because of how strong it appears compared to LCM. An incredible lesson if you ask me.
Once I thought outside the box (or in this case looked closely INSIDE the boxes) I saw the clear evidence. This is a weakly struck LCM stamp applied over a very deep, strong MVA. Just the way you taught me it should be. If you weren't so adamant about the process of mint stamp vs validation, maybe I wouldn't have looked as close.... So thank you.
I received an email from Max Keech. I was in a panic! Because I only had another day or two to process a return... He was very friendly, and talked me down. He confirmed the piece as UNQUESTIONABLY genuine... and was surprised I had mentioned it was so quickly declared a fake on CCF. He knows someone on the site?
He indicated that I was also correct about the MVA stamp. It is absolutely genuine and matches the other known examples. (including the two Ponteiro pieces I had forwarded you)
He also confirmed the application of dual stamps adds considerable rarity, despite a "weak" LCM validation. He said that another weak LCM had been confused once before as being UNDER the MVA, but was confirmed as over upon closer examination. (maybe he meant Pradeau?) Lastly, and not surprisingly.... he said it was a great piece.
I'm just glad I got another opinion...
Looks like it may be destined for Heritage. Should bring AT LEAST $1100-1300... ?
Edited by colonialjohn
03/27/2014 12:19 pm
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Replies: 22 / Views: 3,218 |
Posted 03/23/2014 06:36 am
