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1819 Large Cent, Odd Pattern On Reverse

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Lustre's Avatar
Estonia
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 Posted 03/23/2014  06:36 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Lustre to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
1819 large cent with odd diamond shaped indentations on backside.
Something valuable or just damage?


1819-Large-Cent,-Odd-Pattern-On-Reverse

1819-Large-Cent,-Odd-Pattern-On-Reverse

1819-Large-Cent,-Odd-Pattern-On-Reverse
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IndianGoldEagle's Avatar
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 Posted 03/23/2014  1:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add IndianGoldEagle to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I've never seen anything like that. I'm stumped on this one.
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vermontensium's Avatar
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 Posted 03/23/2014  2:27 pm  Show Profile   Check vermontensium's eBay Listings Check vermontensium's eCrater Listings Bookmark this reply Add vermontensium to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It looks die related to me. The pattern remains consistent.
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philadelphian's Avatar
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 Posted 03/23/2014  5:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add philadelphian to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very cool. The raised meshwork pattern doesn't look like something caught between the die and planchet, but rather, something that had already caused incuse damage to the reverse die, and perhaps ended its life shortly after a very few of these coins would have been minted. I think this Newcomb-9? Obverse and reverse dies were unique to that variety.
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 Posted 03/23/2014  5:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1893S to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Post mint damage, cut a LC with a sharp object and it raises the metal on both sides of the cut, as the coin wears in circulation the cut disappears and whats left is the 2 raised sides melding into one raised line/cut.
Edited by 1893S
03/23/2014 5:27 pm
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philadelphian's Avatar
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 Posted 03/23/2014  6:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add philadelphian to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
But a mesh pressed into a large cent would leave raised diamonds, not incuse.
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vermontensium's Avatar
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 Posted 03/23/2014  6:51 pm  Show Profile   Check vermontensium's eBay Listings Check vermontensium's eCrater Listings Bookmark this reply Add vermontensium to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The "diamonds" are to consistent to be PMD.
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 Posted 03/23/2014  7:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1893S to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There are many hand tools that could displace the copper in this cent in this fashion, I'm thinking a file like tool, leaving the copper metal raised and not incuse. The damage wouldn't necessarily be displaced down into the coin but most likely to the sides
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philadelphian's Avatar
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 Posted 03/23/2014  9:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add philadelphian to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A file. I guess that could have done it.
And the incuse portions of the pattern seem to create voids in the coin's devices, such as the leaves and letter C. Damage to the surface of the die would likely have spared the devices.
Edited by philadelphian
03/23/2014 9:34 pm
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 03/24/2014  12:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Welcome to Coin Community, Lustre.

I am utterly fascinated by this one, and as yet unwilling to commit to any certainty regarding how it came to be.

An experiment: Take a compass or (preferably) a divider, and carefully adjust it to perfect vertical when observing from the side. A divider by nature should do this. Set one leg on one of the "hollows" in the waffle, and one leg on the field of the coin. I think the field southwest of the O on ONE - below and right of the large leaf, the darker area - would be the most consistent location for the second leg. With the coin on a flat surface, if your divider can rest in those two places and still appear perfectly vertical - meaning the field and the place inside the waffle are at the same level - I think a strong argument can be made that the waffle was originally on the die. If the divider is not level, further thinking is necessary.

Either way, Occam's Razor says that we have to assume PMD is the cause. I'm not yet ready to embrace that assumption, though.
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vermontensium's Avatar
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 Posted 03/24/2014  12:26 am  Show Profile   Check vermontensium's eBay Listings Check vermontensium's eCrater Listings Bookmark this reply Add vermontensium to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It could have been a vice or similar device pressed (hard) into the coin but one can only assume there would be a similar pattern on the obverse as well.
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Lustre's Avatar
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 Posted 03/24/2014  04:08 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Lustre to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The experiment with a caliber was inconclusive - the caliber too big, the hollows too shallow.
But if you look at the area at northwest of "N" on the coin, the indentations
appear to be pressed deeper than the surrounding plain. Also IMHO the mesh pattern is
definitely the result of pressing (or hit by a powerful blow) and not cutting.
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CoinsKelly's Avatar
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 Posted 03/24/2014  06:54 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinsKelly to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Could it have been a strike through a piece of cloth? The diamonds and lines are not uniform and kind of remind me of some sort of twine.

Edit: to CCF!
Edited by CoinsKelly
03/24/2014 06:54 am
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TypeCoin971793's Avatar
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 Posted 03/26/2014  07:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TypeCoin971793 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It's not a vice, or we'd see damage in the exact same place on the obverse. The fact that it is raised stumps me. Maybe a peice of foreign material (mesh, something hard) came in between the die and the coin, pressed into the die instead of the coin, and became dislodged soon after a few more coins were struck, thus giving this raised pattern seen here. That is just a hypothesis. I don't see how Newcomb would have missed this one.

Another posibility is that is also a piece of copper mesh melded to the coin. In that case, it may be PMD.
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TypeCoin971793's Avatar
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 Posted 03/26/2014  07:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TypeCoin971793 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
"Could it have been a strike through a piece of cloth? The diamonds and lines are not uniform and kind of remind me of some sort of twine."

If it was mesh contemporary to the coin, how uniform do you expect it to be in 1819?
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CoinsKelly's Avatar
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 Posted 03/26/2014  09:01 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinsKelly to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I do not the mesh/cloth would have been uniform back then so that is why I am leaning towards something that happened during the minting process. The picture does not look like PMD to me.
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