1825 Bust & Harp Token ... Some Questions

Thanks for the reply, Doug. You say that the overdate is the rarest. I found that a very low grade overdate sold for about $5,900 CAN around seven years ago. Yet, both Haxby and Charleton value the 1825, non-overdate, much higher than the overdate. Haxby says $15.000 for the 1825 in VG, but I'm at a loss as to how that valuation was derived. There was a major token auction in New Brunswick, later last year, however, there were no examples of the 1820/5 or the 1825 therein. If these are trading hands at auction, I've been totally unable to find any online record of same.

Hi, billfrak ... Did you see it at a show, a shop or in an auction? Was it the overdate or the 1825? Can you give any details?

Thanks for chiming in!

Thanks, billfrak. That's two overdates and one 1825 that I know of now.

Here's a link to the auction site that sold an overdate in 2007:

http://auctions.tcnccoins.com/LC-60...-VF_i6990308

The 1825 is Courteau variety 21 and the overdate is Courteau variety 22. Both are listed by
Dr. Courteau as having a rarity factor of 10. And yes, there are several others within the
series having a r factor of 9. Dr. Courteau makes reference to knowing of only 3 or 4 ensamples
of the 1825 and provides no further data concerning the population of the overdate.

Dr. Courteau did his work at the early part of the last century. But values of today are based
much upon popularity and availability. I would be interested in knowing the actual current
populations of both. How many of each remain in private collections. How many will never again
see the auction gavel. Have any become lost. I do not know.

As per population, one of a kind are references as unique. What is the rarity of a population
of 3, when two are in permanently entrusted in museums and only one is in private hands. Other
comparisons can be made. I recall reading a population comparison and I will endeavor to find it.

This is not a quotation, but the gist of what I recall reading.

R-10 1-5 Utmost rarity. You may know someone who knows someone who knows someone who says they have actually seen one.
R-9 6-12 Extremely rare If you are fortunate you may see one being auctioned within your lifetime.
R-8 15-25 Very rare You may know someone who owns one. Trading hands perhaps every 5 years.
R-7 26-75 Rare You may be fortunate to own one. Trading perhaps once a year.
R-6 76-200 Extremely Scarce They are available, but you have to do a lot of searching to find one.
R-5 200-500 Very Scarce You may have one.
R-4 500+ Scarce You probably have several.
R-3 1000+ Common You already have too many.
R-2 3000+ More common Stuff that is not worth keeping, but to valuable to throw away.
R-1 10000+ Stuff you do not want. Items that comprise 98 percent of most collections.

doug

Since we are on the topic, here are a couple of pictures of a coin of my grandfather's. It looks pretty good, but Brian Cornwell was suspicious that the date was altered. I would take $15,000 if someone wants to pay it though!

I concur with Mr. Cornwell. The obverse portrait and the reverse harp and date are not consistent with known 1825's.
To quote Dr. Courteau "Obv. Slender bust with long straight nose; the wreath has three leaves at the top (the
others have only two;) the lowest leaf points backward and extends beyond the back of the head; connected shirt frill;
the cuirasse has only six flaps. Rev. dated 1825. The angel's head comparitively small; the date is much closer to
the edge than to the harp but well spaced; the top 5 is too high; dotted borders. Copper." Dr. Courteau continues
"This variety is much superior to others in workmanship..."

An excellent picture of a genuine 1825's can be found on page 122 of the 1st edition of "A Guide Book of Canadian
Coins and Tokens" authored by Dr. Haxby, and published by Whitman's. This photo clearly shews the doted rim of the
reverse and the date being much closer to the rim and distant from the Harp. The numeral 5 is noticeably higher.
The genuine 1825 shews nine strings to the Harp, whereas yours has 10 strings. Other reverse difference abound.
Concerning the obverse, the point of the bust of the genuine extends much nearer the rim. Your token shews 5 large
separated ruffles below the neck, whereas the genuine shews small connected ruffles. The laurel leaf pattern is
completely different. The placement of the eye is completely different. Numerous other obverse differences exist.

The host variety of your token is Courteau variety 7, having an r factor of 1.

Seeing the 1825 is highly collectable and sought, unscrupulous individuals sought to make a fast buck by duping
potential clients who were not fully astute concerning the genuine item. Your is typical counterfeit of the 1825.

Sorry.

doug

That's a very detailed description, Doug. Much appreciated.

As a newcomer to this series, the markers that I initially saw missing on the pics of the altered 1825 above were as follows: 1) A chubby bust; 2) No dentils; 3) No large die chip in field behind the bust; and 4) 10 harp strings instead of nine.

The one I acquired has these four markers, including the nine strings. Here are is one of my amateurish pics: