Tlalpujahua. War Of Independence (Insurgent) 8 Reales 1811

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Heritage catalouger:

Tlalpujahua. War of Independence (Insurgent) 8 Reales 1811, Tlalpujahua (?) mint, KM206, VF for issue, 21.9 grams. Clearly a cast of better manufacture than most pieces encountered, but of silver plated copper, thus probably a contemporary counterfeit. Note that struck issues in copper are also listed for this general group of coins, albeit if such coins were effectively accepted into circulation, the silver plating of a specimen would only be made with intention to deceit, at an earlier point (or location) to when those copper issues were struck. An interesting piece of research value to the specialist of this challenging series. The cataloger has seen coins of similar manufacture stamped with the Morelos countermark and accepted as contemporary issues of these turbulent times. Estimate: $150 - $200.


http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleN...&lotNo=32479

The host is cast copper. All host coins for these issues are struck copper from my research so far in this series. We do see for example in the Stacks 11/2012 Sale lots 11145-11150 in struck copper although the coloring of 11146 is interesting or is it the photography? Anyway - all struck copper flans. In my current meager? library we see in Superior Galleries August 8-10, 1983 Lot: 1620 a 1811 CAST! 2R of this type. Unable to trace another cast in any denomination let alone 8R but the cataloger I guess has seen other modern fakes?

I suspect silver washing and not silver plating with this type of host coin and tough to tell from the photos even in high magnification.

The silver pieces come both struck and cast. It seem very improbable a combination of silver wash over a cast host could be from a legitimate operation. Is it a CC from the period. I would say - YES. Good wear in the high motifs. Interesting he has seen some with Morelos counterstamps - so some of these fooled or were just needed for coinage for the other seen by this catalouger.

It is interesting it is so well made ... BTW - silver wash can be put under the same Pt/Au screening as a normal regal 8R of the period or even a cast Chihuahua 8R.

However - just put out more struck copper issues or cast/struck silver issues - why all the EXTRA WORK on silver washing a cast host?

An annoying piece ... but show me another one? Remember - a cast could be made anytime ... but this piece shows age as a CC cast silver type ... IMO.

Yes - the cataloger tells us this but the fact these were counterstamp (others?) by Morelos does not really mean anything except to the consigner - of course ($$$).

I personally believe based on continued XRF testing with pieces in my collection that debased Ag issues particularly with Insurgent issues were mint issued and not contemporary counterfeits or modern issues. In terms of silver plating or silver wash issues like this Heritage piece it seems these are contemporary counterfeits since they make so sense compared to the regular issues as for the reasons I have given above ... I am also finding some very different alloy classifications in the 1914 Durango Series ... if something is brass and the regular issue is copper this will not necessarily make it contemporary counterfeit ... zinc levels seem to be fluctuating greatly ... I also see this in other series ... much to be investigated ... for those familiar with Canadian Blacksmiths this seems to be similar to the Wood 14/15 (Brass/Copper) dilemma initially brought out by Howland Wood in 1910 and later determined Wood 15 in copper could never be proven. I have shown recently all Blacksmiths are inherently low in zinc values which makes some brass issues under the right environmental conditions appear as copper. I see Mexican numismatists making the SAME mistake.

John Lorenzo
United States