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 Replies: 19 / Views: 4,702 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1018 Posts |
Wanted to know why many older coins can be found with digits in the denticles on the obverse? There are many in the Indian Head cent series, and the explanation I have heard most is that it was somehow used to test the hardness of the die. If this is true, why are there no examples known with any indication that something similar was used to test the hardness of reverse dies. Were mint employees only concerned with the hardness of the obverse dies? Edited by RedRaider
04/05/2014 1:57 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10045 Posts |
I have also read this is the most plausible explanation for MPDs. Good question about reverse dies--I have seen an MPD on an FE cent rev., forget where. In terms of IHCs, the explanation may be partly due to the fact that variety collectors look more at the date area. It may also be due to more steps in making the obverse die, such as the deeper relief and the impression of the date. And perhaps die life was a bigger concern for the hammer die?  Here's one of my favorite MPDs--the 1870 S-8. Snow estimates as many as three date impressions in the denticles. I found one on ebay a while back.   Edited by DVCollector
04/05/2014 3:56 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7840 Posts |
Perhaps the date puncher was sipping on grandpa's old cough syrup.
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Valued Member
440 Posts |
Always thought it was to test hardness of die after annealing. Now you will find some "dots" on the reverse of Peace dollars. Also the mintmark was punched in on the reverse of many issues which would provide a way to test hardness. Bust halves have dots on reverse for device placement measurements which could also do double duty in this regard. http://www.vamworld.com/MPDPossibly the obverse & reverse married dies were annealed together at the same time requiring only 1 to be tested. Interesting question. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2077 Posts |
Here's why they did it and I know from personal experience. In a previous job I borrowed a machinist's number punch set to mark a piece of tooling. I didn't realize that the tool had already been hardened and completely destroyed two of his punches. Just flattened the numbers. So I think they did this to make sure that die was soft before whacking in the date and mint mark.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10045 Posts |
That strikes me as a very plausible reason--some real perspective on why it's done.  Edited by DVCollector
04/06/2014 02:13 am
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1018 Posts |
I do think your answer makes the most sense.
It is done to test the "softness" of the die, rather than the "hardness"
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Valued Member
United States
149 Posts |
One of the more colorful reasons I've seen was a tongue-in-cheek explanation from Ron Landis (Gallery Mint, expert nickel carver) saying that there was a rat problem at the mint, and periodically a die sinker would get bitten while sinking the date.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2757 Posts |
the rat explanation doesn't sound like the most parsimonious explanation.
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
Why would you deliberately disfigure a die in a tender place - denticles are tiny and easily damaged - for a hardness test? One would think that a successful hubbing would demonstrate the proper hardness, as a too-hard die wouldn't properly receive device details. I've always considered denticle MPD's to be from bounces of the date punch, whether traced to hub or die.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2077 Posts |
If the die was too hard before hubbing, it would destroy the hub, something that I'd think they'd want to avoid. They probably chose the dentils because it was somewhat inconspicuous. Numismatics wasn't big back then and they probably figured that no one would notice.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10045 Posts |
Quote:
I've always considered denticle MPD's to be from bounces of the date punch, whether traced to hub or die. To sink the date, the digits weren't hammered into the dies; a smaller logotype press was used--at least that's what I've read from several sources. Otherwise, I think you would see a lot of "chatter" in the date impression. I doubt a single hammer blow could do it, and you might as well see these bounces above the date too. Edited by DVCollector
04/06/2014 9:17 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
6370 Posts |
Someone had a long night partying on New Year's Eve, or at least on Twelfth Night.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
9792 Posts |
I just won a copy of Kevin Flynn's book "Two dates are better than one" and am looking forward to getting it, and seeing what he has to say on the subject. I don't always agree with Kevin in his hypothesis in the Two Cent varieties, but I do respect him and have most of his books, they are all good references IMO. Quote:
DVCollector - To sink the date, the digits weren't hammered into the dies; a smaller logotype press was used--at least that's what I've read from several sources. Otherwise, I think you would see a lot of "chatter" in the date impression. I doubt a single hammer blow could do it, and you might as well see these bounces above the date too. That is my impression too, hence wanting to see what Kevin has come up with in his book. I've wanted it for some time, but just didn't want to pay full price for a copy, won one on ebay for $10 tonight  "Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013! ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1981, ANS, Early American Coppers Member (EAC), Colonial Coin Collectors Club member (C4), Conder Token Collector Club member (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS) member, Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) & Numismatic Bibliomania Society member (NBS), USMex, Member in good standing, 2¢ variety collector. See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440 |
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
Quote:
and you might as well see these bounces above the date too. You mean like "One in the neck?"  I dunno - just kind of theorizing here more than anything else. Deliberately hitting the denticles doesn't make intuitive sense to me, though, since the spaces between them are some of the smallest details on a die and would be very susceptible to destruction. Further, I should think the Mint would have had more-sophisticated methods for hardness testing. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
8515 Posts |
Yeah, one in the neck, how does that happen ?
Oregon coin geek.....*** GO BEAVS ! ! ! ***
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Replies: 19 / Views: 4,702 |
Posted 04/05/2014 3:25 pm
