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Grading Today Compared To The Past.

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buddy16cat's Avatar
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1536 Posts
 Posted 05/09/2014  8:04 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add buddy16cat to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Would you say that the TPG are more likely to give coins a higher grade than in the past? I am wondering because I noticed that many people in general give a more conservative grade for coins and wonder if grading standards have changed.
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acloco's Avatar
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3540 Posts
 Posted 05/10/2014  12:24 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add acloco to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There was a LOT of overgrading and "helping". Because of the $$ involved....it is that simple - greed.

Some of the grading services now look at a coin and ask, "Do I want THIS piece in MY slab"....at any grade?

Google crossover grading and see what your results find.

Now, luster/cartwheel is also part of the equation. Same with RD, RB, BN for copper coins as well.
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kanga's Avatar
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5825 Posts
 Posted 05/10/2014  08:15 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kanga to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, grading has changed over time.

Best example that I can think of is coins in PCGS OGH slabs.
Many were cracked out and resubmitted; they often came back a grade higher.

Another factor is market grading vs. the older technical grading.
That gave me fits at the ANA Seminars I attended two years ago.
Many of my opinions were low; rarely did I grade anything higher than was on the slab.
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austrokiwi's Avatar
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 Posted 05/10/2014  12:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add austrokiwi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Market grading/technical grading?


I gather they are two different things but I hadn't heard of them before. I am guessing technical grading is grading a coin objectively on technical criteria. And market grading is grading that the market will tolerate?

B
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jdmern's Avatar
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1949 Posts
 Posted 05/10/2014  12:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jdmern to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Isn't market grading where eye appeal is included as a significant element in the grading, while technical grading is simply based upon the marks to fields/strike/luster ect.? I was under the impression that the big US grading services were all market grading while ICCS grades Canadian coins simply based off of technical grading?
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 05/10/2014  12:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
"Market grading" is a derisive term implying inflated grades offered in an attempt to squeeze extra money out of a given coin. The TPG's got into that habit fairly early on, quite possibly because of the overwhelming workload once their slabbing concept took off. That - in my opinion - is why grading standards originally slipped. They just had too much work, and too little time per coin, and over time the standard got looser.

The pendulum has swung the other way these days, and people like CAC are keeping it that way.
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kanga's Avatar
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 Posted 05/10/2014  2:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kanga to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Good description of market grading:

http://boards.collectors-society.co...mber=1166960
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shermae's Avatar
United States
259 Posts
 Posted 05/11/2014  7:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add shermae to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If market grading really does occur, then I struggle with why downward market grading does not occur. So often, I see coins like Morgan dollars or Buffalo nickels with horribly affected surfaces. In the case of Morgans, the problem is usually severe, uneven toning to the degree that it can be difficult to even see surface details. Yet these coins have high grades, like this MS65 from PSGC: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1878-S-MORG...m1c3ff59843. The eye appeal is awful, at least to me. It looks like a 62 or 63.

Here is another one that is not only MS65, but CAC stickered: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1921-Morgan...em1c3f625daf. To me it looks like it has a disease! So, what am I missing about the degree to which eye appeal affects grading by the TPG's?
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16810 Posts
 Posted 05/11/2014  9:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Both PCGS and NGC admit to using "market grading" standards, though they prefer not to openly call it that for semantic reasons (ie the negativity associated with the term, as mentioned above by SsuperDdave). PCGS still openly claims the term on their glossary page.

As for grading standards slipping over time, it is a well documented phenomenon. It's called "gradeflation" and, just like monetary inflation, is usually a slow and imperceptible creep. It's really only noticeable when you pick up an old "how to grade coins" book from a generation or two ago.

Gradeflation happens fastest in places where the coin market is most active and competitive. America has had the most active and competitive coin market in the world for over a century now, so gradeflation has been worst there. Grading standards in America are far lower than standards in Britain, Europe and Australia. A coin slabbed by an American TPG as "EF40" I would grade "VF" and a British collector would grade "gFine", while I'd hesitate to call any coin slabbed below MS65 truly "uncirculated".

One postulated side effect of the creation of TPGs has been the elimination of gradeflation. While it may have helped reduce it, it has not eliminated it completely - as the crackout artists know only too well.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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acloco's Avatar
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 Posted 05/12/2014  12:56 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add acloco to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sap's info is spot on.

Greed - in a lot of cases. One of the most recent examples that come to mind - google "Omaha Hoard". Any coins with those words on the label, I automatically deduct a minimum of 1 grade point prior to looking at the coin and sometimes 3 after viewing. Money talks...there were a LOT of "Omaha Hoard" coins graded.
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Tom Goodheart's Avatar
United Kingdom
856 Posts
 Posted 05/12/2014  07:20 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Tom Goodheart to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Grading standards in America are far lower than standards in Britain, Europe and Australia. A coin slabbed by an American TPG as "EF40" I would grade "VF" and a British collector would grade "gFine",


I'm not quite sure if UK grading is harsher or just different Sap. Either would account for a difference.

You'll also find the same arguments here in Britain; that standards have slipped. There may well be some instances of this.

It must be remembered that while ebay has been brilliant for bringing material to collectors, the large quantities of lower grade material has led to people thinking that what used to be average collectable coins, because they appear better than the rest of the 'bay, must be higher grade. We are all inclined to compare with what we have seen I guess. And if we mostly see washers ...

Plus, in Britain at least, grading has been influenced by the market and US standards. Way back in the 1950s, British grades were largely confined to Poor, Fine, Very Fine etc. I guess it was expected that collectors would inspect any coin they intended to buy personally and make up their own minds. There was no internet and dealers mostly sold from retail premises rather than by post.

During the 1960s or so I understand (before my time .. well, coin collecting time at least!) the terms, 'nearly'[VF etc], 'almost' and 'good' started to creep in. Now we have many more what might be called 'sub-' terms so that a coin graded 'Very Fine' in an auction catalogue of the 1950s might well be 'good VF', nEF or 'a really nice VF with much eye appeal' today!

It makes it seem that standards have slipped. But perhaps it's just that as prices have become more reliant on smaller and smaller differences in condition, grading has been adjusted to reflect this?
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