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Replies: 10 / Views: 2,371 |
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Pillar of the Community
708 Posts |
Hey, I thought about making a family treasure if I could buy enough silver, or rather, having a silversmith make me a family treasure in the form of a solid life-sized Red Fox statue (not hollowed out) with angel wings on its back, and I wanted the fox's main body to be plated very thick with copper or bronze (whatever copper alloy that would have a hard time tarnishing, and would look like Red Fox fur coloring) and thick platinum (or maybe a cheaper silver-colored metal that hardly tarnishes, like nickel) plating on the white tipped tail and under the chest area. And possibly a bunch of black onyx stones to cover the bottom halves of the legs and most of the back of the ears, as "red" colored Red Foxes have black fur in those areas.
So I finally thought about asking:
0. Is there a way I can pay silversmith to do this? 1. How much do you think a solid (not hollowed out) silver Red Fox statue with wings would weigh? Would it be hard to lift and move, and more importantly, hard to steal? 2. Would it be hard to plate one section of the statue with copper colored metal, and the rest of it with a silver-colored metal? 3. Would the onyx stones for the black sections be hard to find? And finally, 4. Would this be ridiculously expensive? And if so, how much money do you think I would be spending on this custom Red Fox statue?
Edited by Fox 06/17/2014 03:57 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4333 Posts |
How about a bust of Redd Foxx instead? (I'm comin to join ya Elizabeth!)
When I listen to LED ZEPPELIN...so do my neighbors... Roll hunting since '77 Dirt fishing since '72
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Moderator
 Australia
16805 Posts |
0. Silversmiths generally work with smaller pieces. Besides, if it's mostly made of copper, you'll be wanting a coppersmith, not a silversmith. In any event, you're probably better off going to a sculptor or other artist to cast yourself the rough statue, then taking it to a metal polisher and finisher to finish off the job.
1. Copper has a density about 9 times the density of a human or animal; that means a solid copper life-size statue of a 10 kilogram adult fox should weigh about 90 kilograms. Add in extra mass because a fox has large hollow ears a big fluffy low-density tail, add extra mass for the wings and even more mass for whatever base you're going to be sitting this thing on and it can easily weigh up to 200 kilograms, or twice the weight of a hefty adult human. Not exactly the "portable commodity" that thieves are usually looking for.
2. No, multiple platings in different metals should be no trouble at all for a skilled metal plater. However, I'd recommend making the entire object itself out of a metal in your primary colour (in this case, copper) to avoid at least one of your plating jobs. A copper statue should also be relatively easy to cast. You could use a cheaper metal (like aluminium, which would also be lighter) but I'd be worried about the permanence of the plating.
3. This thing is, as discussed above, heavy. The feet are (presumably) at the bottom. It's also going to have something a normal fox doesn't have to contend with: two big heavy wings attached to its back. You don't really want to be doing anything that will structurally compromise the legs that are holding it up, and replacing the copper feet with black rocks sounds like structural compromise to me. I'd seriously recommend replacing your black rock idea with artificially oxidizing the copper body in the parts you want blackened. If done well, it should give the same effect.
4. I have no idea how much a project like this might cost. The $1200 worth of raw copper you're going to need to buy will be just the start of your expenditure. There's however much you're going to have to pay the sculptor, the copper-caster and the metal finisher. This could easily be a $5000 to $10,000 job.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1454 Posts |
I rather enjoyed reading Sap's thorough, competent assessment, and although I agree with nearly all his proposals, I wonder if he might have underestimated the final cost. There are a number of variables attached to this sort of project, some of which remain ambiguous and need to be fleshed out by the OP's before any real value could be assigned to the project.
If you're willing to cut corners with the raw materials and accept sub-par work - and I doubt that's the case, considering the legacy piece that you're envisioning - it could possibly be done for even less than 5K, but you probably wouldn't be pleased with the end result.
Commissioning the sculptor, of course, is the wild card. As everyone knows, you pay for quality, which means more accomplished sculptor's could cost you FAR more than $5-10K just for the craftwork alone. He or she would also have a voice - possibly with vetoing power, depending on the parameters of the contract - in the selection process of the raw materials, as well, further upping the final tally. Now, find some poor, indebted, desperate art student fresh out of - or still in - college with no real prospects, and labor costs dwindle markedly.
If you ever complete your ambitious project, remember to share with the class ;)
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4333 Posts |
I agree, as I'm sure I didnt help. Nice Sap!
When I listen to LED ZEPPELIN...so do my neighbors... Roll hunting since '77 Dirt fishing since '72
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Pillar of the Community
 708 Posts |
(Oh, wait. I should have tried to sat in the title, that I want the primary metal of this fox statue to be solid "silver" with just thick platings of copper, and as I said, maybe nickel in the white sections.) Quote: Besides, if it's mostly made of copper, you'll be wanting a copper smith, not a silversmith. The statue would NOT be mostly copper. It would be mostly SILVER with a thick copper "plating" Quote: that means a solid copper life-size statue of a 10 kilogram adult fox should weigh about 90 kilograms. Add in extra mass because a fox has large hollow ears a big fluffy low-density tail, add extra mass for the wings and even more mass for whatever base you're going to be sitting this thing on and it can easily weigh up to 200 kilograms, I live in the U.S., and have absolutely no clue about the metric system, so instead of "kilograms", in "pounds" please? Quote: A copper statue should also be relatively easy to cast. You could use a cheaper metal (like aluminum, which would also be lighter) but I'd be worried about the permanence of the plating.
I don't want this to be a cheaper metal. I want it made out of solid silver, to be a family treasure to pass down from generation to generation. Quote: The feet are (presumably) at the bottom. It's also going to have something a normal fox doesn't have to contend with: two big heavy wings attached to its back. You don't really want to be doing anything that will structurally compromise the legs that are holding it up, and replacing the copper feet with black rocks sounds like structural compromise to me. I'd seriously recommend replacing your black rock idea with artificially oxidizing the copper body in the parts you want blackened. If done well, it should give the same effect. You misunderstood me. The fox's legs would also be made out of the silver, and so would have the strength to hold up the body, yet would be cover with onyx stones. But the artificially oxidizing might be the better choice, as I would rather not put any stones on the statue, except for at least the eyes. Quote: I have no idea how much a project like this might cost. The $1200 worth of raw copper you're going to need to buy will be just the start of your expenditure. There's however much you're going to have to pay the sculptor, the copper-caster and the metal finisher. This could easily be a $5000 to $10,000 job. I'm now afraid to ask, what would the cost likely be in SILVER, since, as stated above, I do not want it to be solid copper, but solid copper-plated silver?
Edited by Fox 06/17/2014 8:41 pm
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Moderator
 Australia
16805 Posts |
I suppose it all depends on what you really want: a "giant piece of bullion that looks pretty" or a "piece of art".
Taking a solid block of silver and giving the entire thing a "thick plating" of other metals would, in my opinion, be rather pointless, since there'd be no indication from the outside that it would be a silver object. People usually take base-metals and give them a thin precious-metal plating, not the other way around. Once it was finished, no-one would believe you (or your heirs and successors) that it really was solid silver under there. But, for the sake of argument, let's assume you still want to go ahead with that plan.
The density of silver is only slightly higher than copper, so the total weight of the object is going to end up about the same: about 200 kilograms (quick rule-of-thumb conversion: multiply by 2 to get avoirdupois pounds - it's actually multiply by 2.20462 if you want to be more precise. Or, to convert to troy ounces, multiply the number in kg by 32.1507). Of course, the price for solid silver increases quite considerably. By my math, you'd need about $160,000 worth of silver at today's prices. You can probably halve that cost if you're prepared to make the base out of something cheaper.
Making it hollow would significantly reduce both the weight and the cost and, just as the Statue of Liberty is held up by the steel girders hidden inside it and not the copper sheeting you can see from the outside, a hollow statue would mean that you wouldn't have to rely on the precious metal for your structural integrity. You could build a stainless steel framework to attach the silver to. Structural integrity also imposes limits on the stance the animal will be taking. Lying down? Sitting? Standing? Walking? Leaping into the air with wings spread? That's pretty much in order of difficulty, since the further along that list you go, the more you'll have a rather large mass of solid metal precariously balanced on four, three or two spindly legs. Neither copper nor silver are particularly strong metals; you certainly don't want to make something that will buckle and sag under its own weight over time.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1037 Posts |
This sounds like a very expensive project.
Good Luck with it and don't forget the pictures when you finish.
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Pillar of the Community
 708 Posts |
Quote: 200 kilograms You still never told me what this silver statue would weigh in POUNDS, you know, "lb"s? I don't know math very well, so I can not convert what you say in kilograms to pounds.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4897 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1234 Posts |
Good news is that is less than 1/4 of a ton... Now let me explain that to you.... a U.S. ton ... is 2000 pounds... 1/4 of 2000 is 500. I think... 440 lbs. is LESS than 500... by ... wait I think I can get this.... 500-440.... well I'm not having any luck ... not enough fingers and toes... sorry about that... but I still think 440 is LESS than 500... maybe   just not sure  Edit: math is hard.... 2.2 times 100... NOW I'm LOST!?!?!?   
Edited by ASLAN TVorlon 07/03/2014 3:33 pm
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Replies: 10 / Views: 2,371 |
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