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1995-P Double Die Obverse? Possible New Find Update!

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Pillar of the Community
Rackster's Avatar
United States
4809 Posts
 Posted 07/14/2014  01:07 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Rackster to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Do you have the same variety as the one in this thread?
Valued Member
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 Posted 07/14/2014  04:16 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add doubledieman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hello again. How I find out if I am looking at a possible new discovery? I search the year of the coins variety before I even crack the roll if I am unfarmiliar of all varieties.

I seek out all website to familiarize myself with the known varieties. When I start looking, then when something is different it will catch my eye and ignite me to thoroughly examine it.

Do I own the coin in ths thread? Yes I do. This exact coin you see here is the one shipped off to John Wexler.


Happy hunting

Edward
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Rackster's Avatar
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4809 Posts
 Posted 07/14/2014  09:41 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Rackster to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I like using that approach when I sort out a particular date. Normally for me though, I roll search and the next coin is a random draw. I suppose that I mostly cherry pick, meaning that for a particular year, I have my sites of interest to expedite examination, but I do have 'sweet spots' that I tend to check on every coin. For instance, each coin gets a quick obv/rev check for errors (MADs, Cuds, etc.) but rarely a full review.

Sadly, for 1995 coins, I tended to move quickly to LIBERTY to scan for DDO and occasionally a glance to the IGWT. 1995D wasn't on my search list, so those got quickly moved to the dump pile. Your point to thoroughly research a date is well taken. For instance, I was tossing 1982 coins into a bucket to variety search later and doing the 1983 and later coins as I drew them from a roll. For those earlier coins, I would sort by date and MM first and do the research prior to variety searching. After a while, a particular date becomes memorized and are now rolled up into the master list. I don't sort coppers from zincs any longer and do the search on the draw from the roll.

Finding a new variety is not realistically in my cards when roll hunting - mostly looking to find identified varieties. I might have a better shot using the sort-and-study method I described above, but only if certain other minor varieties might appear at a site. About a week ago in another thread (about approaches to CRHing), a couple of members summed it up best: 1) identifying the hot spots on a coin susceptible to doubling coupled with knowledge of the hubbing/MM and minting processes, 2) developing a feel for what to look for. These two tips I think will help numismatists identify new varieties. Lot's of flips-and-tosses, thousands and thousands, before finding something of merit (I feel that there may be dozens of smaller, unlisted varieties, for instance, MM/RPM varieties). I may migrate to a more disciplined approach, but the process I'm using now produces interest at an acceptable pace.

Valued Member
United States
159 Posts
 Posted 07/17/2014  6:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add doubledieman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Up Date....

Quote:
Hello Edward,

I have processed the 1995 Lincoln Cent that you submitted for attribution in a package postmarked July 10, 2014.

Unfortunately I have to report that the doubling seen on your coin is not the result of a doubled die. In my original e-mail to you I wrote, "What I see in the photos does indeed appear to be a new obverse doubled die variety for the 1995 Lincoln cents." Sadly, photos can be deceiving which is why I never confirm a new listing based on what is seen in photos. That's why I further wrote, "To confirm that it is a new variety, assign it a listing number, and shoot the appropriate photos of the doubling and significant die markers, I would need to see the actual coin."

The doubling on your 1995 cent is a form of doubling known as "mechanical doubling." It has also been referred to as "machine doubling, Strike Doubling, shelf doubling", and sometimes as "ejection doubling." It is caused when loose parts in the coining presses allow the dies to shift and bounce slightly at the moment of impact in the striking of the coin. On coins with raised design elements the result is a flat, shelf-like secondary image. This is most evident on the word WE on your coin, but also appears on TRUST. Genuine doubled dies will have a raised and rounded secondary image like the rest of the letters and design elements. On coins with incuse design elements the bounce creates a secondary impression on the coin that produces doubling very similar to that seen on genuine doubled dies. Serious doubled die collectors consider Mechanical Doubling to be a form of damage rather than a collectible form of doubling. As soon as mint technicians tighten up the loose parts in the presses, this type of doubling is no longer produced.

You can get more information on Mechanical Doubling as well as photo examples of Mechanical Doubling compared to doubled die doubling, on my website at http://www.doubleddie.com . Once there, click on the Worthless Doubling link in the left column menu. Scroll down and then click on the link for Mechanical Doubling. You can also copy and paste the following link directly into your computer's browser: http://www.doubleddie.com/144822.html

After the initial excitement I am sure that this is a major disappointment. It is disappointing to me as well as I was looking forward to using it in my Coin World column.

Good luck with all of your collecting efforts. Your coin will go out in the mail today.

Sincerely,
John A. Wexler
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OcalaFlorida's Avatar
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 Posted 07/17/2014  7:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add OcalaFlorida to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wow sorry to hear that was looking forward to you good news
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159 Posts
 Posted 07/17/2014  7:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add doubledieman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If this is machine a double it would have flattening. I'm not totally convinced. Its going of to coneca
One last opinion.
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John1's Avatar
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 Posted 07/17/2014  7:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add John1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

John1
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Rackster's Avatar
United States
4809 Posts
 Posted 08/06/2014  03:00 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Rackster to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hmmmm...so Red Book uses an MD image to indicate a 1995 DDO? Hoping that CONECA has a different opinion. Sure looks DDO. Wow!!
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 Posted 08/06/2014  10:50 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add seal006 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Why would anyone question what John Wexler has said? The man is a legend in die varieties. Looking at a coin in hand makes it much easier to see when MD is present. Though looking at the images provided, the E shows the strongest MD indication. Yes, it is disappointing to find out something is not what you thought it might be, but to question the guy that will be putting the next CherryPickers Guide together is beyond me.
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Rackster's Avatar
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 Posted 08/06/2014  1:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Rackster to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Surely, John Wexler is an authority on the subject but certainly not beyond reproach. Getting a second opinion is generally recognized as an acceptable response. People have for centuries sought the second opinion of doctors. Even knowledgeable folks make mistakes.

Certainly a coin-in-hand will allow a different evaluation and perhaps conclusion that we will never reach through photographs. The MD fooled the authors and editors at Red Book...and many of us here at CCF. I see no harm in Edward's decision to ask the folks of CONECA to have a look and render an opinion. And doing so is in no way an attack on Mr. Wexler or his reputation. It's simple verification.

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 Posted 08/06/2014  2:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add seal006 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I do not have the RedBook to see this photo you all are referring to. I can assure you that the coin they use is not MD as suggested. Besides that RedBook is a PRICE GUIDE. It is not a publication that is authored by an expert in the varieties of US coins. John Wexler has authored dozens of books on all types of doubled dies and RPM's. Heck he even has his own numbering system that is widely used in the hobby for identifying varieties. The difference in MD and a true DD is NOT an opinion. It either is or it isn't. In this case it isn't a doubled die after all.
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Maineman750's Avatar
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3592 Posts
 Posted 08/06/2014  6:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Maineman750 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It's pretty simple really, take away the "doubling" and you have letters than the original size.....MD
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 Posted 08/06/2014  7:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add seal006 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
What Maineman is saying is true. A doubled die adds mass, where Machine Doubling takes away. Here are some photos of a 1972 doubled die I found less than a week ago roll searching. It is basically doubled the same direction this 1995 shows. Only if you take the doubling away from this 1972, the lettering is still normal size.
1995-P-Double-Die-Obverse?-Possible-New-Find-Update!
1995-P-Double-Die-Obverse?-Possible-New-Find-Update!
1995-P-Double-Die-Obverse?-Possible-New-Find-Update!
1995-P-Double-Die-Obverse?-Possible-New-Find-Update!
1995-P-Double-Die-Obverse?-Possible-New-Find-Update!
1995-P-Double-Die-Obverse?-Possible-New-Find-Update!
1995-P-Double-Die-Obverse?-Possible-New-Find-Update!
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Rackster's Avatar
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 Posted 08/06/2014  11:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Rackster to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Seal - it may not make sense to you but Edward is entitled to pursue this further if he so wishes. Perhaps we can support a fellow enthusiast and leave it at that. Have a good night!
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 Posted 08/06/2014  11:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add seal006 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sure, he has that right. I think what frustrates me is he seems deadset that John is wrong. If anyone compares the photos I posted to the ones he posted, it will start to become clearer. The "E" is the best example of showing it as Machine Doubling.
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