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Three Different Classifications Of Errors...

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coppercoins's Avatar
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7629 Posts
 Posted 08/15/2007  11:21 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add coppercoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
My last educational manifesto for the day - no particluar reason other than I'm feeling wordy and generous today.

The three different fundamental classifications of errors, as originally defined by Mr. Alan Herbert back in the early 1970s, and still stand today - planchet errors, die errors, and striking errors. We can easily remember them if we remember the three mints that struck the vast majority of our 20th century coins - Philadelphia (P), Denver (D), and San Francisco (S)...Planchet (P), Die (D), and Striking (S). Alan's system is called the "PDS error classification system".

Now for the definitions:

Planchet errors - Any error that occurs during the planchet making process. Clipped planchets, incomplete planchets, laminations, split laminations, wrong thickness, wrong stock, wrong planchet (like a foreign planchet). Anything that you can think of that would be a part of the planchet and recognizable as flawed before the planchet went into the striking chamber.

Die errors - Any coin struck by a die that was damaged by the minting process. Die breaks and cracks, Cuds (which are die breaks at the edge of the design), clashes, overpolishing as a result of removing clash marks, and any other form of damage that would be visible on the die if you were to remove it from the striking chamber and examine it.

Striking errors - Basically anything that doesn't fir the other two categories, by definition. If it's an error it had to have happened at the mint. If it's not something fundamentally wrong with the planchet or the die, it had to have gone wrong in the striking chamber. Examples include, but are definitely not limited to; broadstrikes, brockages, indents, double strikes, chain strikes, saddle strikes, ram strikes, any form of off center or collarless strike, partial collar strikes, bonded pairs, capped die strikes, even blank planchets (unstruck normal planchets are errors because they weren't struck...hence striking errors). Get the hint? Anything not a die or planchet error is a striking error.

Just thought I would try to educate and clarify a few things about errors (and actually pretty much all I know about errors since I don't study them).

One thing that would be of great use to anyone wanting to learn about and collect errors is to understand the minting process completely. There are some really good books and videos out there on the subject. If you don't know where to go to obtain these materials, I'd suggest membership in the ANA and a phone call to the library. They will check the materials out to you for free (you pay postage both ways) and they have a very vast resource at your disposal.

And yes, even with all the political mumbo-jumbo going on, I do still support the ANA. In fact, this time next year I will be a life member.
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foundinrolls's Avatar
United States
3507 Posts
 Posted 08/16/2007  02:40 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add foundinrolls to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hi,

This is really pretty good as it stands. I would only point out that over the years the changes in the ways coins are collected have muddied the waters.

VAMS on dollar coins for example really muddy the waters:-) VAM collectors of Morgan dollars , for example, use many forms of errors, die breaks and clashed dies to attribute coins to particular dies or die pairs. So again Errors and Varieties seem to be at cross purposes again.

There are some major basic premises that dont' change.

For the most part, Errors are mishaps during the minting process itself.

Varieties can theoretically be traced back to particular dies or at least other coins struck by those same dies.

Have Fun,
Bill

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coppercoins's Avatar
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7629 Posts
 Posted 08/16/2007  11:47 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coppercoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You are talking about using a number of different die anomalies to separate a series of coins by die - using doubled dies and repunched mintmarks (die varieties) and die cracks, clashes, and polishing (die errors) to separate dies means people are using their noggins to collect all the different dies of a series. It does NOT change them into varieties. People may want to call them varieties, but the only variety I am aware of in the Morgan dollar series is the tail feather change in 1878. The rest are simply different dies attributable as such by either die varieties or die errors that exist on those dies.
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foundinrolls's Avatar
United States
3507 Posts
 Posted 08/16/2007  2:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add foundinrolls to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yep,

Here again though is where Sub-types might be helpful...8 feathers as one subtype and 7 feathers, another subtype. With the 7 over 8 feathers constituting a die variety.

I don't know...maybe?
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coppercoins's Avatar
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7629 Posts
 Posted 08/16/2007  3:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coppercoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
7 feathers and 8 feathers are varieties. 7 over 8 feathers would technically be classified as a doubled die...thus a die variety. That opens a whole new can of worms...

Any time two different varieties are hubbed into the same die this is technically a doubled die (class 3, design hub doubling). Yes, it might be true that this doesn't cause apparent doubling, and the question might be valid as to why we call it doubling, but since it's a problem that occurred at the time the die was made, and because the elements are obviously different, we call it doubling, it is made just like a doubled die, thus is called a doubled die.
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United States
703 Posts
 Posted 08/16/2007  4:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Errorcoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Copercoins, I agree with your thread opener. I use one of Mr. Alan Herbert's books are you are correct in your definitions. I have many of the "types' of errors that you describe.

errror
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foundinrolls's Avatar
United States
3507 Posts
 Posted 08/16/2007  7:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add foundinrolls to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think that this is a learning process, and I am digging for clarification of some definitions that have been a little vague for years so this is a good educational experience.

I realize that 8 over 7 feathers is a doubled die situation. I was trying to float the idea that it would be considered a doubled die variety. I think that is still good use of the terminology ...Or does the description of the coin stop at doubled die?


Thanks,
Bill
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t360's Avatar
United States
2703 Posts
 Posted 08/16/2007  8:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add t360 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very informative "educational manifesto" and follow-up discussion. Thank you for posting it!
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coppercoins's Avatar
United States
7629 Posts
 Posted 08/17/2007  12:37 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coppercoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The description of a doubled die stops there. There is no technical use for a term "doubled die variety" because this would imply that a doubled die is a variety or that the coin exhibits two varieties...neither is the case - it is simply a doubled die.
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thingee's Avatar
United States
2177 Posts
 Posted 08/19/2007  8:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add thingee to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you for the educational experience coppercoins. You can throw out anything you'd like when ever your BIG HEART desires!
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