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8 Reales Real Or Fake?

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Author Previous TopicReplies: 6 / Views: 2,635Next Topic  
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numismaticjunkie's Avatar
United States
13 Posts
 Posted 10/22/2014  2:25 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add numismaticjunkie to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Here is a coin I'm hoping to add to my collection. It weights 26.92 grams, which seems right to me. I believe the edge looks right and appears to have a normal lap...I think (Picture #7.) I do know that there where many types of counterfeits produced of these coins...including the counter stamped ones. I'm having difficulty determining whether or not this may be a counterfeit since I don't have a vast knowledge of these fakes. I was hoping some members here who knew about Reales would take a look at the pictures I have provided and let me know what they think. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

8-Reales-Real-Or-Fake?

8-Reales-Real-Or-Fake?

8-Reales-Real-Or-Fake?

8-Reales-Real-Or-Fake?

8-Reales-Real-Or-Fake?

8-Reales-Real-Or-Fake?

8-Reales-Real-Or-Fake?
Pillar of the Community
United States
684 Posts
 Posted 10/24/2014  10:10 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Westwood Arms to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The "dimples" on the host coin are suspect, some of the lettering is screwy, odd edge but this was an odd mint. As for the countermarks I have no clue. Chas. IIII looks happy. On the fence with this one. Buy it from an expert reputable dealer only.
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numismaticjunkie's Avatar
United States
13 Posts
 Posted 10/25/2014  08:58 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add numismaticjunkie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I originally thought the same thing about the lettering but I have seen graded 8R coins with similar lettering. The edge does appears to be right to me & it weighs. I am leaning towards it being real but I do know there are some excellent fakes out there...that are very difficult to spot. I also know that some reputable dealers may think they have an original coin when in fact they are selling a fake. Not on purpose of course. This is one of the reasons I tend to stay away from these pieces. I was just drawn to this piece and I hope it is real. I look forward to other opinions. Thanks!
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jfransch's Avatar
United States
1801 Posts
 Posted 10/25/2014  1:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jfransch to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Always hard to tell from a photo but I would pass on the coin, is has too many "iffy" things going on. I don't like the surfaces, I don't like some of the mushy design elements, I don't like the way the counter stamp looks. But all just my humble opinion. If you are interested in having the coin because of the counter stamp, just be sure to eyeball the host coin with a good magnifying glass and make sure you are comfortable with it. I know nothing about the diagnostics for that counter stamp, I have actually never seen the reverse side "globe stamp" on a coin in hand. Do a specific gravity test on the coin to determine silver and if the price is good, it's your gamble. If you are thinking of buying because you want a Potosi Carlos IIII 8 Reales coin, hold out for a much nicer example, there are lot's of nice coins out there.
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colonialjohn's Avatar
United States
1757 Posts
 Posted 10/25/2014  2:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If you look at your edge shots (first and last/ top to bottom) you will see some green verdigris coming through which indicates it may be a good candidate for a debased issue.

Gurney is still traveling in the southwest. I checked the GNL nothing matches up as a Type I for this 1807 issue.

The weight is good however?

I assume it has the double overlap edge at 180*? Its a probable? debased silver issue IMO but in todays market I still think it would be difficult for anyone to question its genuine unless the countermark is false? I do not collect these types.

JPL

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numismaticjunkie's Avatar
United States
13 Posts
 Posted 10/26/2014  09:05 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add numismaticjunkie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
JPL, I also noticed the verdigris. The counterstamp seems to be consistent with other stamped pieces I have seen graded. From my research Brazil counterstamped counterfeit & genuine 8Rs. This counterstamp is by Minas Gerais (a state in eastern Brazil). The counterstamp made this coin legal tender in Brazil as 960 Reis.
In 1808, a law was passed in Brazil authorizing counterstamps to be used on many circulating Spanish 8 Reales coins. The silver value of these Spanish coins was 750 to 800 Reis per coin but Brazil stamped & passed the coins at 960 Reis. This gave the government a nice profit of 160 to 210 Reis for every coin that they stamped.
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colonialjohn's Avatar
United States
1757 Posts
 Posted 10/26/2014  12:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Eventually Gurney may look at this piece and give further details. Realize this piece is probably good to pass in almost all channels - in terms you have a legitimate countermark on a slightly? debased Ag issue. GNL Type 2's are the most difficult to determine as you need XRF in most cases - particularly with specimens with weights in and around regal (26.5 grams). Generally I have never seem many issues not debased with this "LEVEL" of copper surface leaching. Again a regal will has just ~ 5% copper which generally will not cause this form of surface copper leaching accumulation on the surface or edge - but there have been exceptions due to some pieces being exposed to certain environmental conditions. This should always pass as a good piece unless someone starts doing spot XRF analysis on the surface. A Sheffield (silver plated CC) is one thing to isolate ... these Type 2's with today's attribution tools is in many ways an impossibility to isolate and prove as a Type 2 without material Analysis devices (XRF,SEM/EDS, etc.) ... we do supply several visual tools in the GNL book to isolate a Type 2's ... this piece seems? to pass this checklist?

JPL
Edited by colonialjohn
10/26/2014 12:23 pm
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