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 Replies: 15 / Views: 1,378 |
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Valued Member
United States
411 Posts |
Hi everyone, This is a long story, and I tried to edit it but it's still long, so forgive me, but I need to vent. Please read it though if you can spare the time. I would appreciate your comments. A relatively long time ago I found two dealers on ebay who I thought were honest in their grades and descriptions of raw coins. I wrote to both dealers telling them I was a newbie and would appreciate direction. I can grade Walkers with my hands behind my back, but when it comes to every single type in the 7070 album, I must be able to rely on the seller at this point. One of those sellers told me it was in my best interests to buy only certified coins for the time being. At that time I had only a few coins in slabs. The other guy wrote me back and said he loved to talk about coins, and to call him on the phone. Which I did. We talked coins and he was very enthusiastic about the topic, and he told me we could do layaways. He had (and still does have) what looked on ebay to be pretty coins. Over a couple of years, I acquired several increasingly expensive coins from this seller, mostly by layaway. Recently, I bought the most expensive coin from him yet: an 1838 CB quarter that he had listed on ebay as MS60, "original" surfaces, for around $700. Not a bad price for such a coin, thought I. I received the quarter eventually and it was a darker coin that I thought it was going to be, but the details seemed complete, and it is, after all, a very old coin. A small amount of luster remained on the reverse. Coins in my 7070 album are begining to tone unattractively, and I don't want that, so I decided to send in 22 of my nicer raw coins to ANACS and NGC. The quarter came back in a body bag from NGC (cleaned)  ; a Half Cent he sold me as MS63 for over $300 came back from ANACS in a "problem" holder (cleaned). Other coins came back in legit holders but with much lower grades than he had described. I was extremely disappointed  and wrote to him to tell him so. Of course, we were well beyond his return policy date. He wrote me back saying he would never send me a cleaned coin without telling me, and if I wanted coins in slabs, I should buy them in slabs.  I knew some of my coins have "problems" but I like them anyway. That's one reason I sent some of them to ANACS. Also, in my estimation, ANACS doesn't overgrade coins. But I want to know that ahead of time, and you can't always see hairlines etc. on ebay photos. I know I don't have any recourse since his return policy is long past. Still, it would have been a good gesture to offer to buy the coins back from me, even at a discount - the coins are easy enough for him to recognize. I won't ever buy coins from him again, and if I knew I could, I'd publish his ebay name everywhere I can, as a warning. Can I do that here? I don't want to break any rules, but I would like to warn people about this guy. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
827 Posts |
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Valued Member
 United States
411 Posts |
Benji: <<I recommend buying or renting some lit. dedicated to the series you are about to purchase. More often than not the cost of the book will cover itself on your first acquisition.>> I know everything you said is true. I do actually buy books, such as Bowers' Type Set book and his Buff/Jeff nickel book, and I am trying to learn how to grade using ANA standards. I don't think, however, that buying on ebay is "sight unseen" necessarily. Some dealers have very good photos. Some of the problems on these coins are hard to detect. For example, one large cent I bought from him was really beautiful. Turned out NGC thinks it's "whizzed". I live about three blocks from Stack's Rare Coins (NYC). I go there at least once a month just to talk to these guys, and they have bought coins from me. I took that cent over to them when I got it and they didn't detect any problems. My main problem is, I don't get to see enough coins in hand. It's complicated, but it would be very difficult for me to get to a show that wasn't in Manhattan. So I look at catalogs and the coins at Stack's (which are also overgraded), and I generally won't buy from someone who has bad photos. I'd never buy anything that wasn't photographed. Edited by Stephen420
09/02/2007 4:59 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
6381 Posts |
Hi Stephen,
I've unknowingly purchased problem coins as well and I try to consider them as learning experiences. Hopefully the mistakes I (and you!) have made will help promote better buying decisions in the future.
Certainly your dealer should have been willing to work with you to some extent. He could at least offer to buy some coins back at a discount or offer credit on them towards other coins. Apparently he did not value your business enough to try to maintain it.
Your best defense is to continue to improve your problem-detection skills, and to buy only from sellers with good refund policies. Please do identify this "problem" dealer in a post. I for one appreciate knowing which dealers are more likely to shade the truth about coins they are trying to sell.
Good luck on all your future purchases!
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7123 Posts |
Hi Stephen The others have pretty much covered the field of where my own opinion falls ,, so I will just post a little sympathy and let you know that you are far from alone in this type of thing . I do have one question ,, can you now see the cleaning that was noted by the TPG's for the coins so designated or are they still questionable ? also ,,you know if you have enough time you can always post up the ebay pics here for opinions before buying . Metalman |
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
The only thing I might add, besides sympathy of my own, is that just because a TPG thinks it's cleaned, doesn't mean it is. Especially now, when they're smarting from having let silly stuff into slabs and are tightening up as a result. |
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Valued Member
United States
411 Posts |
I indicated wrongly in my original post that I rely totally on sellers' descriptions when I buy raw coins. What I should have said, if I believe the seller to be trustworthy based on a sufficient amount of successful transactions, I ask the seller to lead me toward coins that would be good for me, and away from coins that would not. I consider advise when I get it, but I do not buy coins "sight unseen" whether they give me advise or not. I know that other collector's do this if they find a wise and truthful seller. I continue to believe they exist, but ebay seller - "jabetz" - is no longer one of them. This happened after I had bought several raw coins from him. I now realize that all of those coins were overgraded and several had undisclosed "problems." Edited by Stephen420
09/02/2007 5:56 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2443 Posts |
quote:
s that just because a TPG thinks it's cleaned, doesn't mean it is
I agree with SuperDave. Third Party Grading Companies give an opinion on the grade of a coin. There's stories of people sending in coins that were slabbed, and they came back as cleaned. There's stories of people sending in cleaned coins and getting them slabbed. Some people resubmit them and on their 6th try, it gets slabbed. Some take cleaned coins, let them sit in albums, on window sills, etc and wait for them to tone a bit to hide the fact that it was cleaned and it get's toned. It's all a game. That's the risk of raw coins. I don't mind lightly cleaned coins if I know that they were cleaned. I bet everyone of us has(or had at one point) an cleaned coin that we don't know was cleaned. The thing that's not fair is that it seems like you had an friendship with this dealer, he should have at least refund some money for the clean coins($20-$50 per coin?). I've seen some coins that were slabbed for being clean, but they had great eye appeal and you couldn't tell they were cleaned. If your keeping the coin for yourself, do you want to pay more money for a coin that's ugly or for an awesome looking coin that's in better condition for a cheaper price? Who knows, in 10 years, that "cleaned" coin might not be considered cleaned. Just like how grading coins have changed from the 1950's to now. Post some pics up of the coins. Edited by Amazon99
09/02/2007 6:15 pm
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Rest in Peace
United States
2884 Posts |
I have seen, hands down coins in the top TPG's holders that had been cleaned. At the same time I have had coins come back as cleaned that I never could figure out how it was determined. On more than one occasion a so called cleaned coin of mine was resubmitted and came back just fine. There is no perfection here. As has been stated it is really just an opinion.And I know this statement may not be popular, but dealers are human as well. I think most of us want to assign the best grade and condition we can to a coin. It is human nature to "look" for the best when selling, and be most critical when buying. I also am sorry to hear how things went with these coins. It can be disheartening but don't let it get you down. I recently got "toasted" on a few Gold Dollars I bought in an auction. "Bad pictures" and "all sales final" should have driven me away! Peace, Mike  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
986 Posts |
I have also seen many problem coins in top tier TPG holders. Just last weekend, I saw a nice, bright white PCGS VF35 bust half. Yes, a bright white coin graded VF35 by pcgs. Looking at it from about 2 feet away from the dealers case, I could see hairlines. The TPG's mess up, and sometimes slab coins that have obvious problems. Other times, they BB coins without the stated problems. Some pictures of the coins in question would be nice. That being said, if most coins came back lower grades than you expected, I'd recommend learning to grade for yourself (or tightening up your grading standards). Also, if you buy from ebay, have a trusted dealer near you look at the coins you get. |
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Valued Member
United States
499 Posts |
If you could post pictures here maybe you could get some opinions on whether or not the TPG's are correct. There are people here who's opinion I would trust more than any TPG. Ziggy |
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Rest in Peace
United States
3730 Posts |
Not much of significance to add. I am sorry for your misfortune. I am lucky that I have never, to my knowledge, received "problem coins." My purchases have come from my "local" coin dealer, from large companies by mail order, and only very rarely from ebay. In fact the only ebay transactions I can think of were purchases from Susan and Bobby, and they have always been as advertised. |
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Valued Member
United States
411 Posts |
Actually, it never occurred to me that NGC or ANACS could be wrong about cleaning. I don't know, but I might send the CB quarter out again. Sorry I don't have pics. Maybe I'll get a camera for Christmas, even if it turns out to be a gift to myself. Thanks to everyone here, I finally have some guidance in that area.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3233 Posts |
I have a very similar story with a dealer I trusted nearly 20 years ago. I'll even rat the jerk out. His name is Larry Schatz of Antiques and Coins from Philadelphia, PA. This guy deserves to be behind bars. He sold me some of the worst cleaned junk I've ever bought. I've gotten rid of most of the coins over the years but still have a couple.
It sucks to hear when someone else goes through a similar situation but it seems to be fairly common place in this hobby.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3342 Posts |
It's a matter of where you draw the line....I recently submitted a 1795 cent to ANACS. It came back cleaned (which wasn't too bothersome), but also with graffiti (fine pinscratching around the cap - under magnification it looks intentional). So I sent it back for a refund....but....it was a nice coin - no corrosion, brown color, VF details. The price was fair for what it was, but the word "graffiti" on the slab bugged me. If I hadn't slabbed it I would still be the oblivious happy owner of a nice coin (as long as you didn't get out the magnifying glass). On the other hand, the proceeds went into a nice VF/XF 1840 Seated dollar and a ratty Commonwealth shilling to carry in my pocket. I'm happy with that combo too. "Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts |
Only human and until grading is done by lazers and computers, you will always see weird things in slabs. Grading services make mistakes as well as anyone.
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Replies: 15 / Views: 1,378 |
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Posted 09/02/2007 2:40 pm
