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E-Bay Order Cancelled Because I Live In Minnesota

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HarryWells's Avatar
United States
103 Posts
 Posted 11/20/2014  7:46 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add HarryWells to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I had my first E-Bay auction cancelled because of the recent law that went into effect in Minnesota requiring all dealers to register with the state. I spoke with an employee of the Executive Coin Company out of Ohio on the phone after the order had been cancelled and he said the law was just too onerous and that the owner could not afford to sell to people here in Minnesota.

I noticed today that another national dealer listed on his auction listings that they would not ship to Minnesota.

I am concerned that as word spreads or if our wonderful state government here cracks down on legitimate dealers trying to sell to our residents, that it will become increasingly difficult for Minnesotans to buy coins on E-Bay and elsewhere.

Has anyone else on here from Minnesota had trouble getting orders cancelled from E-Bay or any large national bullion dealers?

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fioti's Avatar
United States
4212 Posts
 Posted 11/20/2014  8:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fioti to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That's terrible, I hadn't heard.
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The_Duke's Avatar
United States
1745 Posts
 Posted 11/20/2014  8:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add The_Duke to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have plenty of ebay dealers not wanting to sell to us Minnesotans, but haven't had anything cancelled, yet.

Sigh, Jessie Ventura, Al Franken and stupid laws.

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jimbucks's Avatar
United States
4692 Posts
 Posted 11/20/2014  8:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jimbucks to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Perhaps a reason to move out of the cold weather?
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HarryWells's Avatar
United States
103 Posts
 Posted 11/20/2014  8:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add HarryWells to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
For those of you not familiar with the law here in Minnesota here are some details.

The law was passed after a large fraudulent telemarketing firm was busted in the state. The intention was to crack down on these large illegal operations. The idea was to regulate coin dealers and their employees like you would a stock broker or an investment adviser, but the regulations seem to be too burdensome and expensive for most smaller businesses to comply. I read that to date very few local businesses have registered and no one from outside the state has done so.

Here are some of the requirements from the State of Minnesota website.

A bullion coin is defined as any coin that contains more than 1% precious metal and a dealer is required to register if they sell more than $5,000 of these coins in a calendar year. That would likely include almost anyone selling on E-Bay with even a relatively small volume.

The dealer is required to register with the state and post a $25,000 bond to settle any potential customer complaints. That would be make it difficult for any smaller dealers or casual E-Bay sellers to sell coins to Minnesotans.

There is also an extensive background check required for all owners, officers and "coin dealer representatives" of the company.

A coin dealer representative is defined as: "any natural person acting as an employee, contractor, or agent of a bullion coin dealer and who has interactions with consumers for the purpose of buying, selling, solicitation, or marketing of bullion coins or investments in bullion coins."

This is pretty straight forward when applied to a large telemarketing firm, but when you apply that definition to a small coin shop or dealer, does that mean every employee who deals with a customer, or someone who helps out at your table during the coin show. The guy I talked to at the coin shop in Ohio didn't know, so he didn't want to mess with it.

The background check must include: "... a national criminal history record search, a judgment search, and a county criminal history search for all counties where the owner, officer, or coin dealer representative has resided within the immediately preceding ten years."

The background checks must take place annually for all employees.

When the dealer sells a coin to someone, he must provide the following in writing:

•You must provide in writing to consumers (in a clear and conspicuous manner) the sale or purchase price and the precious metal content, if known, of the bullion coin.
•If you do not know the precious metal content of the bullion coin, then you must indicate in writing that the precious metal content is not known and the purchase or sale price is not based on the precious metal content of the bullion coin.
•You must provide this written notice to consumers prior to the bullion coin transaction or concurrent with the delivery of the bullion coin to the consumer. You must retain a copy of the written notice.
•You must also prepare a written invoice for each bullion coin transaction and provide a copy of the invoice to the consumer at the time of the transaction. You must also retain a copy the written invoice.
•The written invoice must include the following information: ◦Information that specifically identifies and describes the bullion coin being purchased or sold.
◦The quantity of bullion coin being purchased or sold.
◦The bullion coin's sale or purchase price.
◦The bullion coin's precious metal content, if known.
◦The registration identification numbers issued to you by the Department of Commerce. (Required after June 30, 2014)
◦The Department of Commerce's e-mail address and telephone number as follows

The dealer must also communicate the following for every coin he sells:

•The date you will deliver the bullion coin you have sold to them or the date that you will pay them for the bullion coin you have purchased from them.
•Your qualifications, affiliations and registration information and the qualifications, affiliations and registration information for your coin dealer representatives.
•The material aspects of the bullion coin you are marketing, selling, or purchasing, including the bullion coin's performance, efficacy, nature, investment value, central characteristics, liquidity, earnings potential, or profitability.
•The manner in which you will store or otherwise handle bullion coin received from a consumer.

Yep, the next time I buy a 1923 Standing Liberty quarter, I am glad that I will learn the performance history, efficacy and earning potential of the coin among other things and I want to know what qualifies the dealer to sell me that coin.

Here is the website where I obtained this information:

http://mn.gov/commerce/licensees/bu...ler-license/









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BuckeyeCoinGuy's Avatar
United States
711 Posts
 Posted 11/20/2014  8:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BuckeyeCoinGuy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You go .gov.

Pretty soon Minnesotans will have to make a run across the border for coins like some bootlegging rum runner.
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OcalaFlorida's Avatar
United States
2824 Posts
 Posted 11/20/2014  8:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add OcalaFlorida to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
that wording is insane that would include pay per click remarketing campaigns "solicitation, or marketing of bullion coins"
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jimbucks's Avatar
United States
4692 Posts
 Posted 11/20/2014  8:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jimbucks to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If it's worth your time, setup a PO box in a neighboring state.
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HarryWells's Avatar
United States
103 Posts
 Posted 11/20/2014  8:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add HarryWells to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
If it's worth your time, setup a PO box in a neighboring state.


I had thought of that initially, but to buy on E-Bay most of the payments are through Pay Pal and generally must ship to your home address. At any rate you can easily be identified as a Minnesotan by your primary address.

I asked the guy at the coin shop in Ohio if he could ship to my mom in Iowa and I was told that even to use my credit card the address on the card had to match and they could not sell to anyone who could they could identify from Minnesota. My checks have my address and I will not send cash.

I would have to set my mom up as a user at the coin shop's website, use her credit card to place the order and then drive to Iowa to pick it up. This still would not allow me to buy on E-Bay from anyone restricting orders to Minnesota.

It feels like a few years back when I was trying to play on-line poker.
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westernsky's Avatar
United States
7620 Posts
 Posted 11/20/2014  8:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add westernsky to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Use a postal money order and change your shipping address to you Mom's address. Most ebay Sellers will gladly accept a check or money order to avoid PayPal fees. Problem solved.

If your Seller has been around a long time I wouldn't worry too much about "Seller Protection" for not using PayPal.

I might be a little more cautious if dealing with a new Seller.

Work to change the laws in your home state by emailing your local state representives every day. They'll eventually get tired of it and change the law.
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edweather's Avatar
United States
7375 Posts
 Posted 11/20/2014  10:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add edweather to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It just stinks! What a pita.
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jdmern's Avatar
United States
1949 Posts
 Posted 11/20/2014  10:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jdmern to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here's what I don't understand with that absurd law... What teeth does it have? I highly doubt the 'MN coin enforcement' is going to track down unregistered ebay coin merchants... I know they won't head out of state to grab someone for not playing by their absurd law, what's the worst that could happen selling some coins on ebay to MN? You'll be at risk of prosecution if you ever visit MN?
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Bryan78's Avatar
United States
1068 Posts
 Posted 11/20/2014  10:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bryan78 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply


Does this include private to private sales of coins?.. Sounds to me that this is an unenforceable law...

Someway, somehow this law sounds like a gross violation of the interstate commerce clause which I believe that this would be a federal violation on Minnesota's part...
Edited by Bryan78
11/20/2014 10:22 pm
Valued Member
HarryWells's Avatar
United States
103 Posts
 Posted 11/20/2014  10:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add HarryWells to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The penalty for selling coins without registering is a misdemeanor.

Again the law was prompted by a large fraudulent telemarketing operation where the owner was indicted by the feds. In reaction to that the state puts in a highly restrictive law aimed at fraudsters and it is only a misdemeanor to violate it.

The only people this punishes are the small dealers and the collectors like myself.

The two dealers that I am aware of who have stopped selling to Minnesotans on E-Bay are two of the few who accurately tell you if the coins have been cleaned or damaged. In other words dealers who are honest enough to obey the law even if they won't get caught.

It seems to me that this law will only drive honest dealers out of the state.
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Bryan78's Avatar
United States
1068 Posts
 Posted 11/20/2014  10:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bryan78 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The penalty for selling coins without registering is a misdemeanor.

Again the law was prompted by a large fraudulent telemarketing operation where the owner was indicted by the feds. In reaction to that the state puts in a highly restrictive law aimed at fraudsters and it is only a misdemeanor to violate it.

The only people this punishes are the small dealers and the collectors like myself.

The two dealers that I am aware of who have stopped selling to Minnesotans on E-Bay are two of the few who accurately tell you if the coins have been cleaned or damaged. In other words dealers who are honest enough to obey the law even if they won't get caught.

It seems to me that this law will only drive honest dealers out of the state.


So could I sell you a coin even though I am not a dealer?...
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Arael's Avatar
United States
567 Posts
 Posted 11/21/2014  01:35 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Arael to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
$ 25,000 bond holy cow. Seems like one of those laws that was made with good intentions but was not fully thought through :( sorry to hea.
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