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Sheffield Plate Counterfeit 8 Reales

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swamperbob's Avatar
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5362 Posts
 Posted 11/25/2014  12:42 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Today Cayon's current auction was called to my attention because of numerous counterfeits both identified and unidentified.

The best counterfeit of the entire group is a Sheffield plate coin with the George III oval stamp. It represents in my opinion one of the Birmingham types made between 1797 and 1820 in the UK. These were intended to stay at home in England. These were not intended for the China trade - but some may have gone there as a secondary use.

http://www.sixbid.com/browse.html?a...&lot=1499455

I already own the variety and am not bidding - but if someone wants a great Class 1 counterfeit the current bid is 150 Euros. I estimate that the coin should bring just under $300 US or 240 Euros.

Here is a second on ebay - a Sheffield plate late technology using a transfer method dating to 1830+ - I think the coin has gone as high as it should being a late Class 1 it sits near $75.

131350700521
Edited by swamperbob
11/25/2014 2:06 pm
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tokenmast's Avatar
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648 Posts
 Posted 11/25/2014  1:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tokenmast to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you!

Is the right column de-laminating?

Is Amazon the best/only place to get your book?

Time for me to buy? YES!

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swamperbob's Avatar
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5362 Posts
 Posted 11/25/2014  1:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The column has some wear and the punch mark on the column exposes the copper core. This is an early Sheffield because it uses the DARK core metal.

I do take direct orders at my PO Box address and will sign all copies and include the discs with Hardbound copies at $150. The softbound book I can also procure from Amazon and re-sell at their price signed. For an added $15 I can add the discs - (Book $40 - signed - with discs $55) postpaid to anywhere in the US.

Address right now:

Robert Gurney
PO Box 337
Angier, NC 27501

Address shortly (sometime in December):

Robert Gurney
Swamperbob Associates
PO Box 435
Hope Mills, NC 28348
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austrokiwi's Avatar
2087 Posts
 Posted 11/27/2014  11:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add austrokiwi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am confused by the term Sheffield plate. The reason for my confusion is there are two types of Sheffield plate. Old Sheffield plate Which stopped being manufactured around 1840. Ordinary Sheffield plate( electroplated Copper) which was manufactured from the 1840s on. In the silver trade old hands are insistent on using the correct terms. I am not so insistent I just want to know which form of sheffield plate you are referring to. Old Sheffield plate is a forge welded sandwich of Silver with a copper filling. Ordinary Sheffield plate ( the post 1840s) has a much thinner layer of silver on either side of the copper core.
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swamperbob's Avatar
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5362 Posts
 Posted 11/27/2014  12:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
austrokiwi What you are referring to as "Old Sheffield Plate" is what I am calling Sheffield plate. It is the hot or cold welded method of applying a silver alloy layer (mechanically) to a core of copper that developed in the 1770s and virtually disappeared after 1850. What you are calling "Ordinary Sheffield plate" is electroplating which uses a totally different (electro-chemical) process to deposit pure elemental silver on copper. There is no connection between the Sheffield area of England and the development of electroplating. Referring to electro-plate as Ordinary Sheffield Plate sounds like a "marketing" term to make the cheaper electroplate more commercially desirable.

I am of the opinion that using "Sheffield" in relation to electro-plate is technically incorrect.

Genuine silver plating using the Sheffield process was also used in counterfeiting as is one method of determining the age of a counterfeit. Sheffield plate uses silver alloys that can be matched with the coin. For 8 Reales the silver layer is typically 90% silver and 10% copper. This means the finished product has the correct color. Pure silver deposited by electro-plate is a slightly different color and microscopically thin. The color was one feature that made Sheffield plate superior to electro-plate. The coins looked correct next to genuine coins. The other was the thickness of the plate - it took time to wear off.

At this point it is logical to ask why a counterfeiter would be concerned with ability to wear? It is a legitimate question because most counterfeiters are viewed as only needing their coin to pass ONE TIME. That works for most small criminal counterfeiters. It does not work when the purpose is a longer period of circulation to allow a market to be flooded with near perfect copies.

The drop in world silver value in relation to labor costs is what forced counterfeiters to adopt electro-plate. A copper coin could be struck first and then electro-plated in a fraction of the time and for a fraction of the cost of the Sheffield Plate versions. It was an economic decision and it dominated the world in the last half of the 19th century.

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colonialjohn's Avatar
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1757 Posts
 Posted 11/27/2014  12:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Bob - moving forward as with the recent Stacks MS 61 NGC C&R I think its more of a FILM APPLICATION of silver when we discuss Ag electroplating evolving from the earlier Sheffield process ... perhaps if the word FILM DEPOSITING is used as a descriptive tool MORE OFTEN it would provide more of an educational awareness to collectors as it did for me only two weeks ago ... I thought I was buying a C&R Sheffield until after I brought the piece into the lab from our previous discussion and saw the differences under a 10X - 40X stereoscope. I have since purchased one in my home ... there is a big difference under 30X between a silver plate over copper (Sheffield) and a silver flim being applied over copper (silver electroplating). Its the plating term in BOTH processes throwing everyone off as it did me until recently ... for sure.



JPL
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austrokiwi's Avatar
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 Posted 11/28/2014  12:58 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add austrokiwi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks. That was my bad on the electroplating. Just FYI in Ex british colonies and the UK anything that was chemically/electrically plated was often called "Sheffield plate" whether it came from Sheffield or not. I could be wrong but I don't think "plate" refers to the addition of silver but rather the goods made with the silver. What I mean is plate Silver ( as opposed to plated) was silver service cutlery etc.
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swamperbob's Avatar
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 Posted 11/28/2014  01:35 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Having a background in engineering I have a tendency to use terms defined in a narrow way (to increase precision).

Plating by itself refers to the covering over of one metal with another. The techniques vary and Sheffield is a very specific technique. I am surprised that it is currently being used in areas other than the US in relation to electroplating.

Now that I know that I will have to be more descriptive so as to try to eliminate that confusion.
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tokenmast's Avatar
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648 Posts
 Posted 11/28/2014  02:15 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tokenmast to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yeah right


Quote:
I will have to be more descriptive



well yes it is Thanksgiving

where is that tongue in cheek smiley face?
Edited by tokenmast
11/28/2014 9:49 pm
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