Ethics In Collecting - A Question From Swamperbob

I have had two situations within the realm of what you are describing. In each case I began by asking "Why?"

The first time was with a coin being offered to me by a dealer with whom I had previously done business. He told me that he had bought the coin "right" and because he didn't have much call for it in his shop he was willing to give it to me at a good price rather than have it sit in his shop. It was a nice piece and one that I needed for my collection, so I gave him his asking price and we were both happy.

The second experience was with a co-worker. He knew I collected and brought me a coin he wanted/needed to sell. He quoted me a low price based on an outdated price guide he had (it was more than 10 years out of date!). I gave him a better sense of its current market value and paid him accordingly. (I didn't need the coin, but he needed the money and I didn't want him to sell it at an artificially low price and lose out.)

I have, on occasion, purchased coins and medals at prices far below their current market value on ebay, however. In each case, I entered a bid based on what I believed the current market value was but wound up getting it for much less. In those cases, I felt it was a fair transaction in an open market.

I would never knowingly take advantage of someone just to get a coin or medal at an artificially low price. It's just not worth it to me.

You bring up a good question, but I have to wonder.... does this person not know the value of the coin? Maybe they know the value and start the bid low to get attention and may be looking to sell regardless of profit or loss. The value of anything is only worth as much as someone is willing to pay for it. But for arguments sake lets assume the person doesn't know the value of the coin... then how did they come up with initial price in the first place? Most likely its the price they feel the coin is valued at in their mind. I think it would be safe to assume this person would be happy to sell that coin at the price they presented. I don't see how it is greed when someone bids on a coin that they value more than what the seller does. Now if that same buyer is to make a "minimal offer" when they know the seller doesn't have the knowledge for the true value of the coin, then the buyer is taking advantage of that individual.

Back to the GI's, lets assume that some of them where honest to this child selling the fake coin and gave the child the true value in exchange? Would the child then be greedy for taking the money or would the child be taking advantage of the GI's? Same can be said for people on ebay, maybe a buyer makes a high bid knowing the value and if they get the winning bid then great.....until they learn they where deceived.

There are three kinds of people who bid on fake coins on ebay.

- People who genuinely do not know any better and think the coin is real.
- People who suspect the coin might be a fake, but are prepared to take a gamble that it might actually be real.
- People who know perfectly well it is a fake, and are assuming that they can on-sell the fake for a profit.

Unfortunately, we cannot tell directly what the motives of the bidders are. However, I will point out that, as far as how much a person is prepared to pay for such a coin, the above list is in descending order: the more they believe a fake coin is genuine, the more they will be prepared to pay for it. So in an open free-market auction scenario, the people who are going to get hurt the most are "the innocent" (or, if you prefer, "the gullible"). On that basis, I can fully justify and support all efforts to stamp out fake coin sales on auction sites.

That being said, there are con-artists and scammers who do rely on the greed of others for the scam to work. A classic is the one that goes something like "My no-good husband is cheating on me, so I'm selling off his coin collection". People assume that such a woman does not know and does not care what "true market value" for the items are, so they do not question why valuable coins are being sold for bargain-basement prices. They can even justify their greed by saying "well, he deserved it".

It's a auction so low bidding is fair, since the market dictates what is a fair value. Just like I don't feel bad when a dealer or flea market vendor prices something low. I just fiqure they want to move it quicker.

Now if someone comes to me in need or just wants to sell me something, I will give them what a dealer would give them unless I need that exact coin for my collection. Is it bad ethics? I don't know, but I haven't learn how to sell things at market value through ebay and stuff. So otherwise I lose money.

If a coin is known to be genuine but is offered for a very low price that is too good to be true, the price SHOULD be discussed.
That happened at a coin show for me. An Greek silver coin was being offered for $20, when it very obviously should have had a price of around $250. I pointed it out, and lost the opportunity of getting a very cheap coin for myself.
20/20 hindsight years later keeps reminding me that I did the right thing. I still feel good about it.

There's definitely many valid points here. While I am not a Christian, I believe the Christian ethics of seven deadly sins may come into play here. Gluttony and wrath may not apply too much.

In any hobby (or activity) as long as there is a human element, there are always some room for lust, envy, pride, sloth and greed. Let me ask you this question - when you are growing up collecting coins, was there someone's collection that you envied and that had some impact / inspirations for you? Did you desire to have an amazing collection? Once you assembled some set, did you have a sense of proud achievement?

I'm not saying it's bad. But if you mix a couple of elements, they can be a molotov cocktail. I personally don't believe greed is the only reason behind the scene - as far as I am concerned, buyers have reasons why they want to obtain a certain coin. Remember that coin collecting is not a necessity. The way I see it is, a buyer is affected by lust (desire) or envy. Multiply that by sloth (laziness) in not bothering to check authenticity and multiply that by greed - you have an explosive formula to why counterfeit operations are so successful.

The two elements that we can have influence over is sloth and greed. Getting people's attention to such counterfeits and educate them is one and getting people to understand that they aren't going to get some absurd bargain is another. Don't get me wrong - bargains can still be obtained if you are an expert.

As to what the best solution is, I reckon we should create a new venue where experts are hired. For new sellers, they must go through a screening process of selling at least 10+ items and if they decide to sell counterfeits, experts can penalize them and charge them extra fees. Obviously such sellers will get banned after a couple of warning. Buyers have the option of asking questions to the experts and if they feel generous, they may offer to donate a few dollars. Or experts can do some research for a fee. All funds go towards operation side and experts. Sure you might want to suggest slabs but there are limitations to this. This is a more win-win solution and gives no room to counterfeiters to mess around. The only time this fails is when experts are no longer competent or they are bribed big time.