| Author |
 Replies: 10 / Views: 2,390 |
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
There was a posting on the Heritage site today that I planned to post tonight after I had the opportunity to copy the pictures etc. But a few minutes later I got this note from Heritage. Quote:
Greetings from Heritage Auctions.
A lot you have been tracking, lot # 34838, previously described as: "George III Contemporary Imitation Countermarked Dollar ND (1797) XF40 PCGS, Manufactured in Birmingham ca. 1797, cf. KM627. A Sheffield plate contemporary imitation of a Santiago 1792 So-DA 8 Reales with a counterfeit oval George III countermark. This very good contemporary copy has fooled a present-day third party grading company and was likely readily accepted in its period of manufacture since well-worn examples of these same dies are also known (note that a similar specimen was included in the A. Patterson sale (Bonham's 7/1996, lot 554) as an original issue but later withdrawn as a counterfeit). Originals of this issue gave rise to the saying "The Bank (of England) to make their Spanish dollars pass, stamped the head of a fool on the neck of an ass". A good early work on these and other related counterfeit Spanish Colonial issues manufactured at Birmingham is Paul Bordeaux's "Les fausses Piastres de Birmingham" (1903). A most interesting and eminently collectible issue, scarce with the silver plating essentially complete." in the 2015 January 13 - 14 World Coins & Ancient Coins - Dallas, #3038 has been withdrawn from the auction and is no longer available for tracking.
Thanks for your understanding.
If you have questions regarding this lot, please email Bid@HA.Com.
Heritage Client Services
Bid@HA.com
Heritage Auctions
3500 Maple Ave. 17th Floor
Dallas, TX 75219-3941
1-800-872-6467 This is upsetting because I am fairly certain that the stoppage was due to PCGS noticing that they had encapsulated a COUNTERFEIT. I also noted that Heritage did not mention our book which specifically catalogued this coin as a forgery - even though they have been given copies of the book and the scans. I think the FIX IS IN.  |
|
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Bob - Remember that Stacks/Bowers used our GNL classification for the cataloging of the Mike Ringo Collection. It may be the proper thing to do here in this scenario as a re-catalog may not be possible and only a PULLING OF THE LOT out of the auction is possible? - Hence - call the piece out - break it out - resubmit it as a RAW with the the proper GNL classification ... or suggest to the seller put it on E-Bay or some other auction venue if Heritage does not want to sell GNL Type 1's at the moment. Not sure? All this may not have been possible without the new GNL book ... I am looking at it with an optimistic outlook ... just a thought.
John Lorenzo
Numismatist
United States
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
1156 Posts |
I don't own any type I counterfeits so I was hoping to gauge the valuation of these from this auction. How much do you think it would have fetched?
|
|
Pillar of the Community
 United States
5362 Posts |
jgenn I don't know about anyone else but I was at $450. Don't know if it would have won but I would have given it a shot.
John - did you happen to copy the photos or the PCGS number?
Did anyone else happen to copy the pictures?
|
|
Valued Member
Germany
194 Posts |
I have seen the lot, and I was very much astonished by the fact that Heritage was offering a slabbed coin along with the statement that the TGP who slabbed it was "fooled". The largest auction house dissing one of the top TGP services!
I Germany, there's a saying that one crow doesn't peck the other's eye out. Obviously, somebody at Heritage sneaked this in, but the top crows quickly pulled it.
If you go through Sixbid, you can still see the lot!
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
jgenn - IMO anyway ... the countermark GIII Sheffields are the most desirable Type 1's - of course the octagonal countermark Sheffields or off-metals even being more desirable (right Jersey Ben : LOL). In this situation you the counterfeit collector of Type 1's are competing with the people who think its regal. So its current worth is irrelevant - its simply - HOW LUCKY ARE YOU? I do now try to look for TPG holders containing Mint State pieces of Sheffield Type 1's but with the GNL Book out now and these major auction houses getting educated it will be more difficult. Its difficult also since sometimes your going on instinct from deep copper toning or edge peeling of silver plate. To me its a DOUBLE homerun if you can find one in a slab - if you see my point! Its much easier I find if obviously you are there at the lot viewing since you can examine the surfaces/edges more closely even if in a TPG. John Lorenzo Numismatist United States |
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
Sixbid will accept the bid but the lot is gone.  I wrote to Heritage about why it was removed and have not gotten an answer.  I wonder if Jay Turner knows.  I only wish we had the PCGS number I would love a picture in the holder as I believe the original Heritage lot had. I wonder if the Heritage catalog finalizer lost his job - this was a big faux pas. |
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
That's strange - why did they then re-catalog it as a ((GNL Type 1 type)) Sheffield and then pull it - AGAIN!
?
Whatever ...
JPL
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
1156 Posts |
Maybe the consignor did not realize it was a CC and had second thoughts about selling it after the catalog text became available.
IMO, I don't think the TPGs care if the host coin is counterfeit. If they believe the countermark is genuine then I imagine their position is that the coin became legal tender and therefore can be legitimately certified as a George III Countermarked Dollar. They should be embarrassed about the CCs, restrikes and forgeries that have been certified as genuine 8 reales, however.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
The coin is the 1792 Ea/SoDa-001. It is very common Class 1 counterfeit when well worn but very scarce in a near intact plate and unknown so far totally unbroken.
It is clearly one of the Birmingham varieties that employed a very distinctive punch matrix. There are 5 varieties at a minimum that share these punches - the rest are all Mo types. This one set of die punches are seen on virtually all of the more common varieties. It appears with the oval and octagonal stamp. There are unstamped versions as well.
There are also several different George III punches used on this series of coins - at least 4 different punches identified so far.
Put all this together and to me that says this must have been a huge original emission. Perhaps Gimbernat was correct in reporting outputs of 25,000 8Rs per WEEK.
|
| |
Replies: 10 / Views: 2,390 |
|
Posted 12/11/2014 10:18 pm
