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Elderly Customers Sue US Rare Coin

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mishap-coins's Avatar
United States
344 Posts
 Posted 09/11/2007  3:21 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add mishap-coins to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers


How many of you believe these people invovled are guilty or not guilty ? Or have had dealing with them in the past?

http://www.vcresearch.info/open/for...&ForumId=116






link below for morganfred
http://www.vcresearch.info/open/forums.asp
Bedrock of the Community
coop's Avatar
United States
62064 Posts
 Posted 09/11/2007  3:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Pretty serious charges again them. Probably they will wait till the seniors are gone and nothing will become of it. I hate when people get the bait and switch and the companies never take no as an answer. Get them! They have gone the right way through Government channels. A lot of bottom feeders selling coins, and a lot of greedy people grabbing at straws. IMOHO
Valued Member
Stephen420's Avatar
United States
411 Posts
 Posted 09/11/2007  4:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Stephen420 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm a lawyer but not the evil kind (i.e., a tort or contract lawyer). So you have to take my opinion with a grain of salt. But I'm not so abysmally ignorant as not to have anything to say. That, after all, is what we do.

Still, it's hard to evaluate this case from this report of the pleadings. For one thing, the plaintiffs reportedly allege all this misleading, deception, and general wrong-doing on the part of defendants, but they don't say what, specifically, defendant did that was unlawful or tortious, and that resulted in "damages."

In law-talk, the claims, as reported here, are "conclusory." That is, they aren't facts at all, but conclusions the plaintiffs want a judge and possibly a jury to come to after having considered relevant evidence. But the pleadings apparently don't allege any actual facts. And without allegations of actual facts at the outset, the complaint would be defective, and dismissed before any further proceedings.

Also, notice that, because in a lawsuit you have to prove more than defendant's bad acts, but also, how those bad acts caused plaintiffs' damage, the pleadings here say that plaintiffs suffered "damages." But don't really say what those damages were; just that they suffered damage and detriment, etc. And again, they don't say why they want hizzoner to believe this; they just say so. Won't work.

I have little doubt that "elderly" persons were taken for a ride. It wouldn't be the first time. There is, however, an assumption of risk that anyone takes when making purchases, especially if that person is an adult. Ignorance of what one is getting into when one accepts an offer, even if one is "elderly," usually doesn't make a contract unenforceable, and, therefore, doesn't make for a very good court case. That's why these plaintiffs have to make the defendant's appear to have wicked intent. Thus the (reported) complaint(s) continuously use language like "knowingly" false, "deliberately" misleading, "intentionally" deceptive etc. They want a judge to believe that because defendants' scheme was so nefarious (and deceptive and misleading and deliberate and so on) reasonable and ordinary diligence could not have prevented these "elderly" plaintiffs from making what turned out to be bad choices. Adverbs, however, are not facts.

Without more, IMHO, this case is dead in the water.
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mishap-coins's Avatar
United States
344 Posts
 Posted 09/11/2007  4:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mishap-coins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Stephen

Thanks for some insight to the process and I suppose it will all really be revealed at the trial as to any facts etc. Though I think I read where others have been convicted of the same charges in other cases of similar.
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Stephen420's Avatar
United States
411 Posts
 Posted 09/11/2007  4:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Stephen420 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Oh, and by the way, I should have put a smily-winky face when I implied that contract and tort lawyers are evil. That's nonsense, of course. The law is a learned and honorable profession. If you're a scumbag, you'll be one whether you're an attorney or not.
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 09/12/2007  4:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
If you're a scumbag, you'll be one whether you're an attorney or not.


Hear, hear.
Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts
 Posted 09/14/2007  11:16 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add just carl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm a lawyer but not the evil kind (i.e., a tort or contract lawyer). So you have to take my opinion with a grain of salt. But I'm not so abysmally ignorant as not to have anything to say. That, after all, is what we do.

This is odd. I used to hang around a bar where the majority of people were in the law profession and many were attorneys. The above statement is what most all say. Is this a recorded message?
In actuality what is said is sort of the truth. This is similar to listening to one side of a divorse story. Ever hear someone say it was all my fault? I agree that there are numerous scam artists out there attempting to take advantage of the elderly and should be stopped. However, I too have had numerous calls and mail about such things as investing in coins, jewelery, land, insurances and probably a portion of the empire state building. I'm old but I also have a garbage can.
Valued Member
United States
259 Posts
 Posted 09/14/2007  1:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chasinva69 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Since Stephen420 came clean about his profession, I'll do likewise. That makes at least two of us on the Coin Community Family forum. He doesn't sound like a plaintiff's lawyer.

There was an article about this lawsuit in this month's Kiplinger's Retirement Report entitled entitled "Coin Con Artists Pick Seniors' Pockets." These folks were certainly gullible, but there is more to it than that.

The victims contend they responded to advertisements in coin magazines and after they contacted the company, a salesman called and made false and deceptive representations. The lawsuit alleges, for example, that the companies lied about the value of the coins they were selling, billed for coins the victims never ordered and refused to honor their promise to repurchase the coins. Some of these companies took in alot of money and then went out of business so the buyers couldn't get their money back if not satisfied as they were promised.

It's easy to say "do your homework" before buying coins, and most of us here know how to do that. But some people need protection from their state's anti-fraud laws, While we may assume some risk in buying stuff from aggressive salespersons, whether they are selling aluminum siding or sub-prime mortgages, there is a big difference in my opinion between companies that fail to disclose all the fine print and those who make affirmative representations that are false and deceptive, and then refuse to honor their promises. I won't attempt to predict the outcome of this lawsuit, but if brought in the right jurisdiction, it can win. Especially with sympathetic victims and a jury.

I recommend that you tell your friends and relatives to check with you before they buy any coins from telemarketers who promise the value of the coins will go up in the future.
Edited by chasinva69
09/14/2007 1:11 pm
Pillar of the Community
Scottishmoney's Avatar
United States
597 Posts
 Posted 09/14/2007  1:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Scottishmoney to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Actually it gets a bit more complicated than an adult buying something with consent in this case in some states that have protective statutes for senior citizens. In states with such statutes, the senior citizen can claim they were taken advantage of because of their condition etc. and nullify contracts, purchases etc. But this case I believe is in Texas and I am not sure for certain what exists legally there to protect senior citizens from these losers.
Valued Member
United States
259 Posts
 Posted 09/14/2007  1:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chasinva69 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Congrats to Scottishmoney on his 500th post. That was fast.
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