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Philip & Mary Groat

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t360's Avatar
United States
2703 Posts
 Posted 09/20/2007  5:12 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add t360 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I finally obtained a Philip & Mary piece. Since several of us have interest in English hammered coins I have decided to post some scans of it. It is actually quite attractive. I don't think these scans do it justice. The light scratches near the portrait are not really noticeable and are exaggerated in the scans.

Philip-&-Mary-Groat

Philip-&-Mary-Groat

I have ordered a new camera from Amazon, so hopefully I will be able to quickly get the hang of it and post some better quality pictures soon.
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halfabustisbetter's Avatar
United States
1984 Posts
 Posted 09/20/2007  5:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add halfabustisbetter to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I love it! Great color and details, a perfect piece from such an interesting time in history.
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Peter THOMAS's Avatar
Australia
2830 Posts
 Posted 09/20/2007  5:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Peter THOMAS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
G'fay, I'm not familiar with this era, but I realize that Mary's reign was short and tunultuous.
I see Philip named on the obverse, but I can only see one portrait.
I can't make out the legend on the reverse.
Am I missing something ?
What denomination ?
Peter in Oz
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t360's Avatar
United States
2703 Posts
 Posted 09/20/2007  6:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add t360 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hello Peter in Oz,

MARIA is 4:00 to 6:00 in the legend on the obverse. There is only the portrait of Mary on this groat (4 pence). There are some portrait coins of Philip and Mary facing each other (aka confronted busts).

I will have to get back to you as to the translation of the reverse legend- (time to eat dinner).

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Peter THOMAS's Avatar
Australia
2830 Posts
 Posted 09/20/2007  7:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Peter THOMAS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
G'day, sorry - I recognized Mary's portrait, in the sense that it struck me as "feminine", and I had seen both names in the legend. I was wondering whether Philip was hiding somewhere: I gather he didn't spend much time in England.
Coins can tell us a lot, but sometimes the real message is a sub-text.
I now realize that you already told us it is a groat.
Peter in Oz
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16826 Posts
 Posted 09/21/2007  03:01 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The reverse legend is "POSVIMVS DEVM ADIVTO NOS", a variant of the Latin legend commonly used on English coins of the time, posui deum adjutorem meum", "I have made God my helper" (based on Psalm 54). Note the subtle change in the legend, though, including meum (my) being replaced with nostrum (our), basically pluralizing the verse: "we have made God our helper".

Only the larger denominations, sixpence and shilling, show the two monarchs face-to-face, and the Spanish arms blended with the English arms on the reverse. I suppose they figured such details would be lost on groat-sized and smaller coins.

There certainly is subtext in the legends used on Philip and Mary coinage: the earliest series included the titles Philip was heir to: Spain and Naples. Within a year, these references had been dropped form the coinage - undoubtedly because the marriage and resultant alliance with Spain was highly unpopular with the English public.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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halfabustisbetter's Avatar
United States
1984 Posts
 Posted 09/21/2007  09:57 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add halfabustisbetter to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The 'we' for both Philip and Mary and/or the royal 'we' for her desire to heal the schism in favor of her 'God'?
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