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The Ram's Bureaucrats Thesis? Stupidity - With Honors.

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squaremealroundplate's Avatar
Australia
185 Posts
 Posted 01/23/2015  7:25 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add squaremealroundplate to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers

Hello all again

I must emphasise that I don't have any axes to grind. These are my hopefully, helpful, observasions based on over 40 years of collecting and selling.

No doubt, by now we've all come to realise that to collect our annual favourite dose of eg, 50c coins, to keep our collection proudly complete , we have to buy at least 5 RAM issues.

These being, as you all know - I x 2015 RAM UNC set, I x 2015 Proof set, I x UNC Baby set, 1 x Proof baby set, and the 2015 coloured " Busy Bees "( Yeah, $13.50 ?) 50c on a card.

The RAM's extremely highly paid bureaucrats, who's university thesis must have been " how can I become even better at being completely stupid ? ", would have each got honors, with distiction.

Because the RAM has costly-to-maintain warehouses bursting at the seams full of their Unsold products from all previous years, their brainstorming "fingers on the pulse of their market " bureaucrats, decided to reduce the prices of some of their 2015 issues by a reasonable amount - 21% on the 2015 6 coin UNC set.

Has the price reductions of the main 2015 sets enticed us enough to keep buying? Are we willing to spend $300 + to keep our collection of all eg 50c coins complete this year?

Your thoughts, please.
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16827 Posts
 Posted 01/23/2015  8:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The RAM's extremely highly paid bureaucrats, who's university thesis must have been " how can I become even better at being completely stupid ? ", would have each got honors, with distiction.

You have got them all wrong. Their thesis would have been entitled "How does a Mint maximize profits above all other considerations". The thesis has four key dot points:
- Everyone who buys our products has OCD, or some other compulsion that forces them to buy everything we sell.
- They will not stop buying them, no matter how many different themes we make or how bizarre or irrelevant the product's theme is.
- If someone only wants only one coin in a set, they will nevertheless buy the entire set just to get that one coin, no matter how expensive we make the set or how many extraneous additional objects we put into the set.
- Profit maximization is therefore attained by maximizing the number of different products sold and by maximizing the number of different coins that go into each product.

The mint's dogmatic assumption about Point 1, which simply isn't true, has seen a lot of collectors give up on trying to "keep the set complete". It has also seen many of their products lose their entire purpose.

The Baby Sets are an excellent case in point. The original concept was brilliant: to make a cheap, affordable numismatic gift that anyone in the country could buy as a gift for a newborn - a family heirloom that might spawn coin collecting in generations to come. But by including coins that are only obtainable by buying those Baby Sets, the vast majority of the sets are ending up in the hands of people who aren't the original target market.

The mint doesn't care. Somebody is buying the baby sets, it is irrelevant to the marketeers that they aren't actually people with babies. So long as profits are maximized, all other considerations are irrelevant.

So here's my thesis in response. I call it "How does a Mint increase it's relevance to coin collectors". It also has four key dot points:
- Collectors are the reason why the Mint has a non-circulation production arm at all.
- That arm should make what the collectors actually want.
- Coin collectors are interested in "coins". An important component of the definition of "coins" is that they were actually issued for use as money.
- Relevance maximization is therefore attained by more closely tying their collector-oriented products to the actual reason for the Mint's existence: the production of circulating coinage.

Some corollaries to my thesis:

"Mint sets" should be sets of coins that were (past tense) actually struck for circulation that year. Ideally, they should contain coins actually pulled from the regular production run, hand-picked to be problem-free, rather than be coins specially made just for putting into the sets. It would mean, of course, that mint sets would be unavailable until the end of the calendar year, rather than before the beginning of the year. If the mint makes 50 circulating commomoratives in a year, then all fifty should be in that year's mint set, but there should be no NCLT in the mint sets at all; if the Mint doesn't make any 10 cent coins this year, then this year's mint set shouldn't have a 10 cent coin.

"Proof sets" can be made at any time, but should not be sold prior to the year stated on the coin. The designs should be proof versions of the coins planned for circulation release that year. Obviously, it won't include proof versions of "unplanned" circulating commemorative coins issued for unexpected events (eg. royal wedding/coronation/birth, saint beatification, football team winning the Grand Final, etc). Proof versions of the circulating commemoratives should be sold individually, as the circulation coins are released.

The Mint should be free to issue as many NCLT-only coins as it thinks it can sell, charge whatever they like for them and market them to either collectors or non-collectors, but they should make such coins using denominations and sizes not used for circulating coinage. This way, the "gotta catch 'em all" denomination-collectors will not feel obliged to buy them just to keep their set complete.

Yes, doing these things would likely decrease profits, short term. But it keeps the collectors interested, and on your side - and that's good for business, long term.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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mrcruise's Avatar
Australia
552 Posts
 Posted 01/24/2015  02:12 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mrcruise to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well said SAP

I think you have covered the main points of the argument

The real question here is how much will collectors put up with before they give up?

I gave up a few years back when RAM started to imitate The Perth Mint model, increasing the different types of coins they minted (which was around 2012)

Then again the signs were there as early as 2007

I fear though what is happening now will not change especially if the RAM is sold to the private sector
Edited by mrcruise
01/24/2015 02:13 am
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trout1105's Avatar
Australia
7096 Posts
 Posted 01/24/2015  02:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add trout1105 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The ABC coins were the straw that broke this Camels back .
I have totally given up on my Decimals collections all together.
My last purchases from RAM were the year of the goat 2015 50 cent coin, the 2015 Mint set and the 2015 Proof set.
I have already had the Mint set and the Goat coin graded by PCGS with disastrous results 2 bodybagged coins and inferior grades except for the mint set 50cents which came back MS69 all the rest were crap.
Not only are the people at RAM overstepping the mark with the proliferation of different mintmarks and counter stamps on various coins The quality of their product is pretty Bloody awfull.
I am pretty sure that John Cleese and the rest of the Monty Python crew are running the Royal Australian Mint at the moment
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Australia
852 Posts
 Posted 01/24/2015  9:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nealeffendi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Slightly OT, but Saps point about the mint issuing coins with the following years date really annoys me. The date is supposed to represent the year the coins were struck, leftover dies pressed into service and frozen date for a deceased monarch (Geo V died early Jan '36 so until well into 1937 his coins were dated 1936).
Someday they may even make a regal faux pas as they might release coins with the following years date and the Queen might pass away before the year finishes.
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16827 Posts
 Posted 01/25/2015  12:07 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Someday they may even make a regal faux pas as they might release coins with the following years date and the Queen might pass away before the year finishes.

Given that they started making the 2015 proof coins in, what, June 2014? It seems to get earlier and earlier each year. That means there's a more than 50% chance that one day we will indeed end up with some coins depicting Queen Elizabeth II and dated the year after she died.

Such anachronistic coins would indeed be popular with collectors... but any mint that issued them would be made to look like a laughingstock. The people that made the wrong date Edward VII coronation and Edward VIII coronation medals come to mind.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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squaremealroundplate's Avatar
Australia
185 Posts
 Posted 01/25/2015  08:21 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add squaremealroundplate to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

sap

The timing of the RAM's release date of their annual UNC and Proof sets, etc, is irrelevant. Collectors would still buy them.

The RAM usually starts releasing UNC and Proof sets for the following years' in early November eg the 2015 UNC mint and Proof sets began appearing early November 2014. This has been consistant from any years.
It's only in the last 7 or 8 years that the RAM, in their infinite wisdom, has gradually began saturating the Australian numismatic market with what their heirachy believed was the all encopassing necessary daily dietary requirements of all collectors.

After many lengthy overseas fact finding missions, much high 5'ing was done after the next years' production offerings decisions in the RAM's hallucinogenic substances filled boardroom were unanimously agreed to. This annual ritual has, once agin, been fulfilled.

So now, through the exemplary wisdom of the RAM's bureaucrats decisions over the last 7 or 8 years, the Australian numismatic market is seeking the services of an undertaker.

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Basil's Avatar
Australia
1040 Posts
 Posted 01/25/2015  6:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Basil to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
That means there's a more than 50% chance that one day we will indeed end up with some coins depicting Queen Elizabeth II and dated the year after she died.


In this case I think the Mint Boffins are aware of possible scenarios and know that if the Queen abdicates or falls ill the last issue will be sold out.
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MobOfRoos's Avatar
Australia
762 Posts
 Posted 01/31/2015  8:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MobOfRoos to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Has the price reductions of the main 2015 sets enticed us enough to keep buying?


The fact that the Mint set has a fantasy 50c coin meant that I didn't buy it this year. I ended up buying the Baby set which cost nearly $20 more but at least it had the COA 50c



Quote:
Are we willing to spend $300 + to keep our collection of all eg 50c coins complete this year?


No definitely not. I don't even really regard NCLT as coins. They are just medalians that happen to have a currency amount on them. In 20 years time no one will remember or care about the truck loads of NCLT that got released in 2015.
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sel_69l's Avatar
Australia
21786 Posts
 Posted 01/31/2015  10:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have reacted to the RAM's policies by strictly building commemorative sets with coins taken from pocket change only.

My reasoning was pushed by the fact that the RAM has issued far too many types of NCLT commemorative coins and I simply cannot afford to collect them all. Most Mint issue commemorative coins are difficult to sell on the secondary market without a large loss.

That locks me out of current issue NCLT.
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squaremealroundplate's Avatar
Australia
185 Posts
 Posted 02/03/2015  11:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add squaremealroundplate to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Yes, fully agree - far, far too many NCLT coins.

I received a call back from the RAM - never can get to speak directly with any of the " Busybees " there whenever anyone phones them.

The 2015 UNC mint set price of $25 is for this year only in celebration of the RAM's 50th anniversary. Next year all set prices' - 2016 UNC, Proof, Baby, etc, will revert back to the prices they were in 2014, although some might be priced a little bit more.

I refused to buy the 2015 coloured ? 50c on the card for $13.50. I think this 2015 50c coin's design supersedes the 1994 Family 50c as the lousiest design. I don't really want the privilege of paying the high premium price of $13.50. $8 or $9 ? Maybe. And the many 1000's of " retired " collectors would also say " maybe " like me - again.



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tella's Avatar
Australia
102 Posts
 Posted 02/05/2015  01:04 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tella to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I would think that if you only made mint set out of what coins are getting issued would be disastrous for the mint. Who would buy them if you can already find a high grade one in circulation? Also it would affect peoples collections if the collected virtually every denomination. Take for instants, if the mint believes that there is plenty of 10c coins in circulation for the next two years, so we wont make any, Your collection would start looking like crap with gaps in it.
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