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Assistance With New Acquisition: 1794 Ragusa Libertina

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austrokiwi's Avatar
2087 Posts
 Posted 02/07/2015  02:33 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add austrokiwi to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I have been suffering an acquisition drought! I broke it with the subject of this post. I am satisfied its genuine my very limited understanding of Ragusa( Dubrovnik) Coinage, particularly this issue, is that they are very poorly produced coins. Now this one has an obverse bearing a figure, albeit "cartoonish", of Maria Theresa. Ragusa for a significant part of its existence was under loose Ottoman control. So the coins very existence tells me the MAria theresa Thalers impact in the ottoman realm shaped this Ragusan coin. However does any one know of a reliable reference that tell the full story, English language preferred but German is also acceptable. Heres the pic:

Assistance-With-New-Acquisition:-1794-Ragusa-Libertina


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Medieval's Avatar
3772 Posts
 Posted 02/07/2015  06:26 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Medieval to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
So the coins very existence tells me the MAria theresa Thalers impact in the ottoman realm shaped this Ragusan coin.


By the time your 2 Ducati was minted, the Ottomans had lost control over Ragusa (for some time already) and while formally neutral, there was a very strong influence of the Austrian/Habsburg empire on Ragusa.
Edited by Medieval
02/07/2015 06:27 am
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austrokiwi's Avatar
2087 Posts
 Posted 02/07/2015  07:06 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add austrokiwi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
By the time your 2 Ducati was minted, the Ottomans had lost control over Ragusa (for some time already) and while formally neutral, there was a very strong influence of the Austrian/Habsburg empire on Ragusa.


It just reinforces the need to know this coin story better. Yes the Ottomans had lost their hold but the trading ties were still very strong. Right up until Napoleon "conquered" them they were a strongly independent state ( only in in trading terms). I would be very surprised if this coin was authorised by the Habsburgs rather I think it was struck in imitation of the MTT for trading purposes.
New Member
Germany
12 Posts
 Posted 01/25/2016  04:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add minga to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Drop me a PM if you are a Ragusa / Libertina enthusiast.
I can provide a couple of paragraphs from the currently most complete book on the subject.
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austrokiwi's Avatar
2087 Posts
 Posted 01/25/2016  08:34 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add austrokiwi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Love to have more definitive info on the Libertina...Tried to PM your but your settings don't allow it
New Member
Germany
12 Posts
 Posted 01/25/2016  09:15 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add minga to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My bad, did not check user settings after creating my profile.

Should be OK now, but since you answered here already I'll send you the part about Libertina later today.

As a side note and a comment to your opening post, Libertinas are usually one of the best struck coins of the Republic in circulation.
It is, by historical denomination, the most valuable coin in the entire numismatic Panteon of the Republic, with the original value of full two Ducats.
Therefore it was probably physically exchanged very rarely and kept in safe places most of the time.
There have been accounts/sightings (by Mr. Resetar who provides a large amount of canon literature on the subject) of golden Libertinas in circulation - such a coin, if proven original, would be worth a fortune (caveat emptor!).
Your Libertina seems to have been through quite a lot and could have an archeological root, rather then typical "hauled away en masse from public and private stashes during Austrian rule" history.
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austrokiwi's Avatar
2087 Posts
 Posted 01/25/2016  09:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add austrokiwi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
wow a gold one would be amazing! It nice to know there are better examples than the one I have.... I have only seen poor examples.. now I know better can be found I will hunt out a nicer example
New Member
Germany
12 Posts
 Posted 01/25/2016  12:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add minga to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Unfortunately, the amount of information about Libertina in the book I have with me right now (Mimica: Numismatik auf dem historischen Boden Kroatiens) was disappointing.
I guess I have to dig up the one from Mr. Resetar (Dubrovacka numizmatika I i II), which might take a while since I have no idea where it is.

This is what I have from Mimica:

Weight 28.887g, 601-603/1000 silver content, radius 41.5mm.
Minted from 1791. to 1795.
Value of the coin was 2 Ducats or 80 Dinaric.
Avers portraits the bust of Maria Theresia (a very popular motif at the time) facing right and the inscription "Respubl Rhacus"(Republic of Ragusa).
Revers displays the coat of arms of the Rector and inscription Duce Deo Fide et Ivist"(under the guidance of god, faith and justice), with the year and initials of the caster Giovanni Angeli (also der Gießer).
Two laurel branches are surrounding the coat of arms.
The coin was minted in a ring, hence perfect dimensions and ornamental edge.
The coin was also used after the fall of the Republic (1808), until 31.8.1817., when it was banned by Austria as illegal tender.
Overall, the mint of the Republic of Ragusa was working between 1337. and 1803.

Here are the ratios between the nominal values of different types of Ragusian coins, with Libertina being on the top: https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubro...4%8Dki_novac
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austrokiwi's Avatar
2087 Posts
 Posted 01/25/2016  12:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add austrokiwi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks was it used as a trade coin with the Ottomans?
New Member
Germany
12 Posts
 Posted 01/25/2016  1:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add minga to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is from Resetar's book:

Libertina was originally made to be popular with the Ottomans, since the coins with the motif of Maria Theresia were getting more numerous and popular.
In the year 1786 it was concluded that the old Talers from Ragusa looked too crude and the plans for creation of Libertina were set in motion.
There is decision of the Senat from 24.10.1792., in which a person named Curic was instructed to bribe the appropriate instance in Istanbul (with up to 1000 Ducats) in order to achieve the exchange rate of 85 Dinaric for one Libertina.
At any rate, it seems certain that Libertina was used extensively between Ragusa and the Ottomans.
Edited by minga
01/25/2016 1:42 pm
New Member
Germany
12 Posts
 Posted 01/30/2016  4:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add minga to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
FYI - this rare coin was the first time Ragusa was using the motif of Maria Theresia and it is a "real" (in the sense of value of 1.5 Ducats) Ragusa Taler, as opposed to the Libertina, which has higher face value of 2 Ducats:

http://www.lanzauctions.com/catalog...00097h00.htm
Assistance-With-New-Acquisition:-1794-Ragusa-Libertina

It went for ca. 30k€.
Edited by minga
01/30/2016 4:17 pm
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wonghinghi's Avatar
Hong Kong
1270 Posts
 Posted 02/05/2016  07:35 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wonghinghi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Weight 28.887g, 601-603/1000 silver content, radius 41.5mm.
The coin was minted in a ring, hence perfect dimensions and ornamental edge.

I agree with the above information. My coin is 28.85 grams,41.4-41.7 mm in diameter. It is very round in comparison with the crown-size coins of the same era. I had also measure its S.G.9.813, is equivalent to 56.9% silver.
The pictures below.
Assistance-With-New-Acquisition:-1794-Ragusa-Libertina
Assistance-With-New-Acquisition:-1794-Ragusa-Libertina
Assistance-With-New-Acquisition:-1794-Ragusa-Libertina
Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts
 Posted 02/05/2016  2:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Not all examples, but certainly seems like at least some degree of that planchet porosity is common. Here's something along the lines of austrokiwi's emission before the wear:
http://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=132861

Note the oddball backward (retrograde) "4" on wonghinghi's piece. I see only (1) other similar piece mcsearch out of about 30 listed in the sales archives:
http://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=2149407
New Member
Germany
12 Posts
 Posted 02/06/2016  04:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add minga to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The awkward 4 does seem interesting.
I do not have it, but several other years (like 3 and 5) also have an odd-looking last digit.
Perhaps Mr. Angeli was being creative with his casts.
Are you collecting Ragusa?
Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts
 Posted 02/06/2016  2:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
No I don't collect Ragusa (primarily Spanish Colonial), just found the crudeness of austrokiwi's coin interesting. Think I might a nothing special tallero sitting in the pile somewhere, that's about it.

We do happen to have a Croatian restaurant named Dubrovnik a few miles up the road :->
New Member
Germany
12 Posts
 Posted 02/08/2016  02:13 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add minga to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Just asking since it is my only significant collection, always hoping to find fellow enthusiasts.
Today's Ragusa/Dubrovnik is a quite beautiful city, there are lots of places named after it around Europe too.
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