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 Replies: 28 / Views: 4,483 |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1442 Posts |
A fascinating auction took place on Heritage Auctions Jan.4, 2015, where a 1c 1859 9 over inverted 9 variety in AU58, sold for $9400US (or approximately $12000 CDN, if we allow for 5% GST tax coming across the border, and CDN to USD conversion). This makes it the most expensive Canadian Large Cent ever sold, in this condition range (if we exclude the 1859 Brass cent, which is technically not a variety, and the 20 known pieces have been monopolized by 1 collector). I was fascinated by this development, as it could be signalling that the demand for Large cent varieties is far stronger than generally believed. The prices in the Landon sale were also much stronger than most collectors anticipated (myself included). Thoughts?  http://coins.ha.com/itm/canada/cana...3037-29157.s |
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Pillar of the Community
New Zealand
1679 Posts |
 speechless Cheers Don
Vickies cents and GB Farthings nut.
"Old" is a figure of speech and nothing more
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Valued Member
United States
302 Posts |
There is one BU piece that I can recall from the distant past. I discovered this variety (there are two such dies) in the early 1970s. In 1975, when I was representing Canada's National Currency Collection at a coin show in Toronto, a fellow came up to me and held up a custom Capital plastic coin holder containing a BU 1859 cent. On the holder he had inscribed 1859 Narrow 9/ 9 over inverted 9. He asked me if I had ever heard of such a thing and whether I agreed with him. I was bowled over by the fact that he had not only indepentently recognized the variety but he had a spectacular example as well. Today I know neither the fellow's name (he was not one of the "regulars") nor the current whereabouts of the coin.
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Moderator
 Canada
10460 Posts |
Quote:
I was fascinated by this development, as it could be signalling that the demand for Large cent varieties is far stronger than generally believed. The demand was there, because this coin, among others, are now part of the PCGS Registry sets... collectors competing for the top spot in those registry sets tend to get carried away sometimes. The race is on for 100% completion and top spot... I do know that the Melron collection is searching pretty hard for problem-free (PCGS gradable) nice examples... http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/com...e.aspx?c=370I still remember when PCGS updated their registry. A US collector snapped up my 1859 DP#5 in ICCS AU-55 the very next day.... although, it has not appeared on the registry - I suspect it got graded as "Questionable colour" as many ICCS coins do not pass the PCGS colour cut... "Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert OppenheimerContent of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_USMy eBay store
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
1442 Posts |
1859 1c 9 over inverted 9 #1 (Haxby I7) CCCS EF40   |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1442 Posts |
1859 1c 9 over inverted 9 #2 (Haxby I4) CCCS EF40   |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5402 Posts |
If as JHax says , there are two such dies that show the inverted 9 over 9 that probably means there are many more out there for those who look hard enough . Personally unless I am lucky enough to cherry pick some of this stuff I wouldn't fork out big money for any of it . 12 K large is enough money for some real investment grade coins. Do not get me wrong , oddities and varieties are cool to find but I for one would never recommend this stuff to any of our clients at large dollars. My advice, you pay good money for solid coins that have a good track record, you gain the knowledge through available resources and CHERRY PICK the varieties that may or may not stay in vogue.. One client of ours is into VAM varieties and has quite a collection of Morgan and Peace dollar VAMS. I once offered him a so called rare Peace dollar Top 50 that he needed. His comment when I told him what I thought was a pretty fair price, was "I paid the same fifty bucks as you did for the VAM Book , why would I spend the five hundred bucks for your coin when I am going to find my own?" Sure enough through his knowledge and due diligence he found one for a few dollars over bullion. When someone starts talking varieties and what not and says how much they are worth and how rare they are my first question is how much WOULD you PAY CASH for it ? The answer is usually nervous laughter or a blank stare? Varieties are to be acquired through your ability to glean numismatic knowledge and successfully cherry pick them. It is usually the lazy coin buyer writing the large cheques for this stuff. |
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
5591 Posts |
Pacific: When you stated "probably means there are many more out there for those who look hard enough", I couldn't agree more. I was lucky enough to be 'in the right place at the right time' in the past when I ID'd 9/6's for their current owners at the time. One was a friend who had bought(I think for about $100) what he just thought was a "vanilla" 1859 just for an example of a Provincial Vicky Cent. When I told him what he had, he was dumbfounded and ended up trading the coin for a few extremely scarce 'errors' (his real collecting niche) that a friend and fellow large cent collector wanted. It was the only Vicky Large cent he had ever bought and the only one that he, temporarily, owned. It ended up being a 62 I think and worth thousands.
The 2nd was at a major coin show where I ID'd what a seller thought was a '59 with a "different" 9 and asked me what it was. I told him and called a buyer that I knew wanted a high grade example. The buy was made and is the finest known and occupies it's own column in Trends. I knew what they were because the coin had been discussed on the CCRS site 8-9 years ago by Brad Gravestone who finally put up a pictorial 'overlay' illustration to show that an odd coin that we had been discussing was a 9/6. At that time, I didn't know that Dr Haxby had found this variety in the 70's. From that point on, I searched for the coin, along with others on my "look for these" list. I have been lucky enough to find 4 other personal ownership Ty 1's, including the first 2 cert'd by ICCS and the one in the 2011 Charlton. The Ty 2's are a little easier to find, but harder to ID because they sometimes show nothing inside the loop and are missing the secondary marker at 12, but the 5/5 makes up for it.
As others have mentioned in other threads and posts(including SPP above), these "high end" scarce varieites in the Large Cents are being driven, in large part, with them now being in the PCGS Registry set inclusions. Because some of the "registry set" coins were purchased at auction or that prices were known, it has driven up the high end pricing. Those collectors with thinner billfolds look for the finer examples in their price range, so there is an active market for most any Large Cent variety collector to fill a "hole" in their collections. Until a coin is properly accepted by a recognized publication, they will never get into Trends or the Registry set rolls. These are the coins that the main variety collectors feed on and discuss at length.
And this all gets back to the need for a well-written and researched reference or guide or list or something that updates or ammends the hodgepodge of info sitting out there in previous publications and coin-site archives. The problem is finding a good knowledgeable group of people with no baggage to do it. I'm pushing 70 real hard and think that Dr Haxby is certainly above that so dumping grey matter onto paper certainly has a somewhat shortened timeline. The need is certainly there for a reference source out there, but it would be a daunting task with mixed personalities, mixed ages, mixed experiences and, most importantly, a group that works well together without 1 or 2 voices driving out the others. A group would need well-defined purpose and scope and lots of time, but not forgetting to have the political savy to get acceptance from current holders of copyright material.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1442 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
3234 Posts |
SPP has explained this pricing phenomena very well..
"The cream always floats to the top"... and the PCGS registry set competition is very hot at this time..... "for the best of the best"...
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5402 Posts |
these TPG registry set competitions are sort of like the Titanic fifty miles from the iceberg. Doomed! Just saying. |
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Valued Member
United States
302 Posts |
"Pacific: When you stated "probably means there are many more out there for those who look hard enough", I couldn't agree more."
I guess I've been in the wrong places at the wrong times. My experience with the 1859 N9 over inverted 9 is that there are only two dies and the coins are pretty scarce. As far as dies are concerned, it is worthwhile to note that since my 1859 catalog came out, only a handful of new dies of any kind have turned up and none has had a repunched 9. Too many people have been looking at the 9s for too long. I don't think William will have to dump his EFs for fear the market will become flooded with more pieces.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1442 Posts |
In 4 years of diligent hunting, I've acquired eight 1859 9/6 #1, none better than EF40. I've let maybe 3-4 slip by me, in G-VG.
Total graded population is unlikely to ever surpass 50. They are definitely tough.
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Valued Member
United States
302 Posts |
Compare that to the 1859 DP9 #1. True, it is much better known, but I'll never be convinced that the population of both 9 over inverted 9s will ever reach that of the #1.
Edited by JHax
03/02/2015 5:36 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1353 Posts |
Makes you wonder what an MS-64 RB is worth.
http://www.victoriancent.com2011 & 2025 Fred Bowman Literary Award Winner, 2020 J. Douglas Ferguson Award Winner, & 2022 Paul Fiocca Award Winner. Life Member of RCNA.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5591 Posts |
CV: Did CCCS put anything on the holders about them being cleaned or doctored?
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Replies: 28 / Views: 4,483 |
Posted 03/01/2015 9:49 pm
