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 Replies: 20 / Views: 5,093 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4932 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
6478 Posts |
 Looks legit. But weird marks make me suspicious. I would get it if it was not raw. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4691 Posts |
Why would anyone buy one of these raw?
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
It comes pretty close to the right location and shape for Mint Mark #4. I might be fooled if the tooling weren't so obvious that you can see the bowl the mint mark is in from so much metal being moved to it. I mean, that's not even close, incapable of fooling someone who has seen one before.
Note how nice and clear the VDB is, too, except for the middle bar of the B. That's another hint.
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21786 Posts |
I am forced to agree with the opinion that the area around the mintmark looks awfully like tooling.
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Bedrock of the Community
Canada
10743 Posts |
The 'S' doesn't seem to have the same wear as the date, he does have a 14 day return policy.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
19935 Posts |
It actually looks legit, but it's been cleaned and the area around the MM makes is very suspicious.
Lincoln Cent Lover!VERDI-CARE™ INVENTOR https://verdi.care/
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Valued Member
United States
226 Posts |
Definitely looks suspicious and I would keep far away from this one. When zoomed in, it appears that the MM is in a shallow bowl shaped depression and there are tool (or flow lines) which only appear in that depression.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1747 Posts |
This is a Bricks and mortar coin shop, and has been in business for a long time (I have no association with them, or any dealings with them) It would in my opinion be a foolish thing for them to sell a fake coin.
I do not know their reputation as dealers, but if you have been in business for that long, you normally do not skirt the edges of business ethics.
If this is a legit coin, what do you think it is really worth?
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
Quote:
If this is a legit coin, what do you think it is really worth?
Well, if it were genuine - it's not - it'd be in the $600 neighborhood. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4233 Posts |
I've never had nor seen one of these, but I like analyzing images I guess. Left is the OP coin, right is an MS65 Red example from Heritage. Both mint marks have the appearance of being in a depression, and some of the "tool marks" radiating southeast from the S look exactly the same. I can't believe anyone could "move metal" so precisely, but I learn something new every day.   Edit: Sorry, I can't help myself. Below is another Heritage coin. Notice how the two striations running northwest from the lower serif of the S are duplicated on the OP coin, and the line running southeast from the upper right serif is evident on all three coins.  Edited by kbbpll
04/08/2015 02:30 am
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
Those are excellent images which clearly illustrate the fact that the auction coin is an added mint mark. The Heritage coin is clearly not - the striations around the S extend to above the 0. There's a vast difference between flow lines and tooling to the knowledgeable numismatist.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4233 Posts |
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
I'll concede the possibility that you're right, kbbpll, albeit any reasonable numismatist is going to distrust a raw 1909-S VDB first and be convinced by evidence.
On how many of the Heritage coins is the depression around the Mint Mark the only place where those striations exist? And on how many of them is the depression around the MM roughly square and that much larger than the MM itself?
If I'm going to be wrong, this is the direction in which I'm going to be wrong. The seller got his money anyway.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4233 Posts |
I don't want to beat a dead horse and I really respect the experience etc you bring to this forum SsDd. It was educational for me to investigate. I'm just hoping it might be a lesson to others to not jump to conclusions, and investigate instead. As far as your points, look at the images posted. The last and third to last are both coins with an obvious depression, and these coins are MS65. The OP's coin despite wear and who knows what cleanings etc still shows striations radiating out from the 9, and the NW-SE "striation" inside the 0 is the same in every subsequent image. Explain how anyone is going to "tool" a perfect S mintmark in exactly the right location, out of metal on the surface of a coin, while simultaneously duplicating the NW to SE "toolmarks" seen on dozens of other examples. We on this forum say "buy the coin not the slab", and then when it's not in a slab, we call it a fake. I object to that. Take some time to really investigate before you crucify somebody's coin.
Edited by kbbpll
04/14/2015 12:11 am
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Moderator
United States
16677 Posts |
I think it's genuine but there is no way I'd buy one raw these days even having been at this for over 30 years.
The S and it's position appear correct.
swcoin.ecrater.com
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Replies: 20 / Views: 5,093 |
Posted 04/06/2015 10:42 pm
