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 Replies: 11 / Views: 7,220 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
731 Posts |
I purchased this coin from a Christensen Auction in the mid 80s. It is 39m.m and weighs 25.6 grams. The NGC World coin site shows the weight at 23.4 grams which is much less than my coin. A review of Howland Woods book states that this coin type was struck in Durango, but the dies and equipment were later furnished to Pancho Villa forces in Chihuahua, where they continued to strike them at a higher standard. Is my coin possibly one of these issues or is it an outright fake?   |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4883 Posts |
I'm far from an expert on these, but they've certainly been faked and can be tough to authenticate, although NGC at least will certify them. This specimen scares me because it looks so fresh and blazing white, and the 1980's provenance isn't nearly old enough to preclude its being a modern forgery. The weights I've seen for auctioned (and therefore ostensibly genuine) ones have been 21.29 and 22.60 grams.
The quality and centering of the strike for the real deal is all over the place, so no help there, but what looks to be evidence of a die crack running up past the "A" from the bottom of the eagle side is shows up elsewhere on supposedly righteous examples, albeit in a more advanced state.
So my evaluation is therefore mixed and not at all definitive. As Captain Obvious says in the hotel corridor, "No need to thank me since I haven't helped you at all."
Colligo ergo sum
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
When I was in Phoenix and learning about other areas of Mexican Numismtics I had a discussion with a well known dealer on these - as I had a fake also with me to show around. It had no die breaks. It seems this is key. You WANT multiple die breaks coming off the legends to the interior - this has SOME. To me this is borderline ... I don't persue these REVMEX much more on WOI pieces which is complicated enough with all the changes Max Keech of MCC is putting forth ... so ... ? on this piece. But you want die breaks. Weight? Others will chime in ...
JPL
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2133 Posts |
If you were to pressure cast a genuine specimen with die breaks, wouldn't the die breaks show up, possibly slightly differently on the cast specimens ?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4883 Posts |
Quote:
If you were to pressure cast a genuine specimen with die breaks, wouldn't the die breaks show up, possibly slightly differently on the cast specimens ? That sort of possibility is why I was careful in how I worded my reply in that regard. How crisp this feature actually looks under high magnification in hand would bear on whether it can be taken to validate or controvert this particular specimen. Colligo ergo sum
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
There is still alot in terms of the War of Independence and Revoultionary Coins that are still in their infancy in terms of what is proper or improper - and also being accurately classified. These areas is very much like countermarked West Indies pieces. A good library, buying from reputable sources, alot of research and once in awhile keeping your fingers crossed.
JPL
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
731 Posts |
Since I had purchased this coin frpm Christensen, who was somewhat of a Mexican specialist at the time, I was pretty happy when it arrived and looked great. I didn't weigh it back then. When I recently weighed it and saw the weight on the NGC site, I got curious about the accuracy of the NGC site. I checked the Heritage archives and found several similar looking pieces, but no weights were listed. Then I found the Hwland Wood online book where it stated the info about heavier pieces struck in Chihuahua up to 28 grams. I had never before heard about the transfer of dies and equipment from Durango and thought this might be one of them. The mystery continues.
Thanks for all the input.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Somewhat = Christensen = Its Original = Cased Closed
LOL
JPL
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4883 Posts |
Quote:
...heavier pieces struck in Chihuahua up to 28 grams. I had never before heard about the transfer of dies and equipment from Durango and thought this might be one of them. Time for Captain Obvious to step in again. I'd say that hypothesis seems to be on pretty shaky ground. If your specimen's apparent die crack looks to be in an earlier state than that of a documented example which weighs less, it becomes difficult to argue yours weighs more because it was struck later. However, that's not evidence per se that it's not authentic, just one piece of the puzzle that doesn't seem to fit and thus raises a little concern. Colligo ergo sum
Edited by Lucky Cuss
04/09/2015 09:41 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
The fact that the late Bill Christensen sold this to you as an original or has his company pedigree makes me satisified its ORIGINAL. I agree as with the WOI issues the REVMEX issues have alot of UPDATING/CORRECTIONS/REFINING to do in alloy classifications, provenance and such ...
Keep us posted on other opinions of this piece.
JPL
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Pillar of the Community
United States
731 Posts |
colonialjohn---I wasn't aware that William Christensen had passed. I recall when his dad left us. They had some great material and I was lucky to obtain some of it. I still have many of the catalogues with PRs that I still use for research.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
He lived in New Jersey and met him a few times at the NJ Numismatic Society Meetings. At the time I was into U.S. Colonials and not Spanish American. I did pick up some great contemporary counterfeits from Bill Anton from Christensen who dealt with both the Dad & Son.
JPL
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Replies: 11 / Views: 7,220 |
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Posted 04/08/2015 11:18 am
