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Where Half The Morgans Went

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thq's Avatar
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 Posted 05/06/2015  09:14 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add thq to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I had read about the export of Morgans around the end of WWI. I didn't have a concept of how many, or in what form....a swimming pool's worth of Morgans....

http://www.govmint.com/pages/swimmi...ilver-dollar
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 05/06/2015  09:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Pittman's act was a master stroke, and I could not admire him more for it. First, it alleviated two serious problems - Great Britain's silver crisis, and the uncounted millions of Morgans taking up space in storage because so few ever actually circulated (Morgans in the first place having been a political creation to hook up silver mining interests).

Second, it provided for the US Government to purchase an equal amount of domestic silver to replace it, at a price greater than current market. And Pittman's home state of Nevada was still a major silver producer....the combined mintage of 1921 Morgans and all Peace dollars rather neatly fills that mandate.

The elegance of that move may have been equaled since, but it hasn't been exceeded.

For the record, Q. David's estimate of 15% remaining still amounts to almost 80 million Morgans.
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Cascade's Avatar
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 Posted 05/06/2015  10:04 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Cascade to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
When you first hear of the the Pittman act you want to go back in time and strangle the guy. Not being able to wrap your mind around it. Then you read, read, and read some more only to find out what a stroke of genius it really was! SsuperDdave has, as always, wrapped it up in a simple 2 paragraph post. Where was he when when I was learning about it
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 05/06/2015  10:11 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Where was he when when I was learning about it


Right here teaching it, my friend.
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Cascade's Avatar
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 Posted 05/06/2015  10:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Cascade to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
*Edit: Where was I
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rynegold's Avatar
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 Posted 05/06/2015  12:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rynegold to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Dave you've read this I suppose:

Where-Half-The-Morgans-Went

What a book! This was Van Ryzin's thesis or part of it.

The era's cartoons are just priceless!
Where-Half-The-Morgans-Went

Where-Half-The-Morgans-Went
Edited by rynegold
05/06/2015 12:30 pm
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 05/06/2015  12:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Fascinating, rynegold, and no I haven't read it. Yet. To me, the competing monetary standards merely represent the varying political factionry of the era (or any); it's always possible to trot out an "expert" to agree with your agenda.
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Cascade's Avatar
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 Posted 05/06/2015  12:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Cascade to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks rynegold! I know what I'll be reading on my trip up to Virginia City now.
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rynegold's Avatar
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 Posted 05/06/2015  12:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rynegold to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Cascade I'd love to visit Nevada... someone reccomended this book to me saying it was very informative but, a "slow read". I didn't think so at all. Great book!
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Cascade's Avatar
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 Posted 05/06/2015  1:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Cascade to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Don't worry rynegold, I will start a thread and post pics of VC and the Carson City mint when I go incuding their stunning cc coin colletion and cc coin press #1 for all who have never been to live vicariously through them
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DoubleEagle20's Avatar
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 Posted 05/06/2015  1:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DoubleEagle20 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I still strongly believe that the silver from the SS Gairsoppa recovery is Pittman Act silver. Makes sense as it came from Calcutta in November 1940. I believe it was leftover silver from that act.
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thq's Avatar
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 Posted 05/06/2015  3:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add thq to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here are some pictures of what came up from the Gairsoppa

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ipwreck.html

I had heard that trainloads of mutilated Morgans were what was exported, but I could find no pictures of the coins or the refining process in the UK. What came up from the ship were lots of ingots, appearing to be about 5-10 kg each.

A swimming pool sized ingot...what a concept...
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 05/06/2015  3:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I still strongly believe that the silver from the SS Gairsoppa recovery is Pittman Act silver. Makes sense as it came from Calcutta in November 1940. I believe it was leftover silver from that act.


The contents of the ship amounted to ~5% of the Pittman melt. Not an implausible theory, especially when one considers the importance of holding precious metal to the Indian culture.
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Conder101's Avatar
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 Posted 05/06/2015  4:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Pittman's act was a master stroke, and I could not admire him more for it. First, it alleviated two serious problems - Great Britain's silver crisis, and the uncounted millions of Morgans taking up space in storage because so few ever actually circulated (Morgans in the first place having been a political creation to hook up silver mining interests).

It also created a problem as well though because all those dollar coins were backing for the silver certificates in circulation so melting them down required the removal of something like 270 million dollars worth of currency from circulation. Of course the economic slowdown this would normally cause helped to moderate the economic boom being created by the wartime economy.


Quote:
Second, it provided for the US Government to purchase an equal amount of domestic silver to replace it, at a price greater than current market. And Pittman's home state of Nevada was still a major silver producer....the combined mintage of 1921 Morgans and all Peace dollars rather neatly fills that mandate.

Even better, that greater than market price was paid by the British not the Americans. Under the terms of the Pittman Act the British paid $1 per ouce for the silver, which was well above the market price, plus they also had to pay an additional amount per ounce to cover the expense of coining all of the new silver back into dollar coins.

Actually the recoinage of the Pittman act ended with the 1928 Peace dollars. The 1934 and 35 coins were the result of another act by the government. Another mandatory silver purchase act to support the silver interests, and it boost the governments silver stockpile. Only part of that purchase act went to silver dollars though, but it did swell the governments silver holdings by over 2 billion ounces.


Quote:
I had heard that trainloads of mutilated Morgans were what was exported, but I could find no pictures of the coins or the refining process in the UK.

The Pittman Act silver was melted and formed into bars here, it was not shipped in coin form. And considering the act melted nearly half of all the Morgans that had been coined theyweren't selected mutilated ones, just whatever bags happened to be closest to the door of the vault.
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Gyrene7483's Avatar
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 Posted 05/07/2015  8:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Gyrene7483 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I cannot even image what the market for Morgan dollars would be now if even 10% of what was melted did not suffer that fate. The dates / mint marks that would have escaped the melting pot would have had a significant impact today.

I have been to the Carson City Mint Museum and if you a chance to go it is definitely worth the trip. Watching the coin press operator place the dies in the press, align them and then be able to buy the commemorative coin fresh off the press was an awesome experience. And you are just about ten to twelve feet from the press itself, very up close and personal.
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 Posted 05/07/2015  9:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Cascade to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I can't Remer who said it, probably SD, but they said morgans would be equivalent to ASE's today without pittman. But even with 10% more being held back I'm sure the landscape would be analogous to the plot of Back to the Future 2.

Gyrene, Ken hoppel the chief coiner likes to tell people to touch the planchet before it goes into the press to "imprint your dna" into the coin forever. Not sure if that's true or not though. Did you touch yours? And what pattern did you get?
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