1879 As (Alamos) 8 Reales

Good name for the coin - Laughing snake and scowling eagle.

Interesting die work. Looks like the die needed some touch up work. I wonder if it is lapping or just poor initial die setting?

No. The dragon's teeth were a feature of the standardized dies, which the Alamos mint only started using in 1887.

For those who may not know what we're talking about here, the "dragon's teeth" consist of a pair of minuscule spikes protruding from the underside of the Phrygian cap, ostensibly incorporated into the design as a measure to render counterfeiting more difficult.

The dates for the Dragon's teeth vary somewhat by mint. Also you must be very conscious of lapping of the dies as the teeth were easy to accidentally erase and not all of them were replaced after lapping. I expect that all mints had this problem but I have not located verified examples for all branches.

In general the appearance of dragon's teeth coincides with the beginning of the use of Mexico City standard dies in 1887 and at times the design particularly of the eagle's head and snake's head can identify the adoption of "standard" designs. Some mints did produce close to standard looking dies as noted below.

Chihuahua and Oaxaca are oddities however. At these two locations (and possibly Zacatecas) there was an effort to add Dragon's teeth before the dies were all produced at Mexico City. The teeth are not uniform in size or shape and therefore can be confusing. I theorize that the mint officials at the bracnches were attempting to protect their "power" by retaining the die making shop. As in most cases of a geographically diversified production practice - the attempt to consolidate for uniformity and cost reduction will be resisted on a local level until a mandate is established.

The dates of conversion are:

As 1887
Ca 1880 non-standardized dies - 1887 Standard Mo dies
Cn 1887 Standard Mo dies some appear to be lapped off.
Do 1887
Ga 1887 Some appear to be lapped off.
Go 1887
Ho 1887 The mint adopted the "standardized" reverse hub earlier but without the dragons teeth.
Mo 1867 This was before die designs were standardized ca 1875
Oa 1881 Initially produced locally and very irregular using clearly non-standardized die designs. Standardized designs were introduced ca 1884. All coins after 1887 have teeth.
Pi 1887 However, there were 1887 dies made using the old designs without the teeth. These are scarce possibly because they were left over dies.
Zs 1887

1shootist

Glad you re-read the post. Forgers have inadvertently added "dragon's teeth" to dies in a random fashion. Also there was a time about 15 years ago when many novice collectors ( ebay buyers) were fooled into buying coins that had been redated to make them appear rare. Most were easily identified if you realized that the forger was altering common late date 8Rs most of which had dragon's teeth.

Regarding the coin with the very light date - that is a natural part of collecting 8Rs. It is also why grading on the Sheldon scale is especially foolish for any series made before modern presses and machines that could control planchet quality.

A light date or any other missing feature on an 8R is caused by a failure of the die to fill at that particular point. The reasons are quite variable. But the end result (the weakness) must be taken into account when grading. Your otherwise nice coin, or as you say with reference to grade "... the coin is in great..I mean great condition", is really NOT that great if the date , assayer or mint mark is missing or even nearly missing.

I have been following Dave Bower's column and over the past few weeks he has been complaining about the Sheldon scale. It does not address issues like weak strike etc.

However, if you want to know why the date is weak look two places to start with.

1) Check the details at the same point on the other side of the coin. A feature can only be seen if the die fills. When the planchet is too thin at any point the die can not fill because there is not enough force generated by a manual screw press to fill it. So if there was a depression in the silver strip rolled from the fillet ingot - there will be weakness on both sides at that point.

2) Check the edge detail under the date. If the blank was slightly clipped (straight clip caused by the fillet edge or a slight curve clip caused by punching two blanks out too close together) the edge will end up being weak at two points - at the clip itself and at a point 180 degrees away. Since the edge is applied by two parallel bar dies a loss in diameter of the blank means a weak edge detail and also a failure to thicken (upset) the rim at that point and 180 degrees away. Those 2 places on the planchet will strike up poorly.

Now if neither of these tells is present - you might have a coin struck with a filled (obstructed die). This is a rare condition in open sided presses where the dies could be easily cleaned with a wire brush, but not impossible. A closely related cause could be some form of material on the planchet but these are usually outlined on the coin itself and the texture of the surface normally changes.

In Dunigan's book "Resplandores" the 1880 Pi is a coin that is scarce in MS grades for both assayer combinations.

Regarding how to view the date - the angle and various lighting angles are usually the only way.

They are scarcer but not rare by any means. I have seen both types but you will find that you run into the type without teeth less. Dunigan indicates that the earlier type is more difficult to find in high grades. That may be an indicator of a sleeper.

However, since no one knows for certain how many of each type actually survives only time will tell how the pricing will work out. At present they are both priced as common and cherry picking high grade types is still possible. Invest in Mint state or near mint state examples of the type without teeth as opposed to the standard type. There is more potential for growth.