Crossover Experiment: NGC, ICG, ANACS, Segs, ICCS, CCCS To PCGS

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canadian-varieties Pillar of the Community Canada 1442 Posts	Posted 07/08/2015 11:18 pm I decided to take advantage of the PCGS Crossover special ending April 30, 2015 (only $10 fee if a coin does not crossover, instead of the usual $30). As a variety hunter, I accumulate varieties in all sorts of TPGs and all sorts of conditions. So I sent 40 graded coins to PCGS and crossed my fingers. The order took 2.5 months. The results of this experiment, and some observations/comments are below. Some coins had gone through 2 or 3 grading companies previously, all those are listed. (DNC = Did not cross): 1. 1859 1c DP9 No.1 ICCS EF40, ICG AU53 - PCGS AU53 2. 1859 1c DP9 No.2 CCCS MS62 - DNC (old cleaning suspected on a portion of the reverse, retoned) 3. 1859 1c DP9 No.3 ICCS EF40, CCCS EF40 - PCGS AU53 4. 1859 1c DP9 No.3 ICCS EF40, ICG AU50 - PCGS AU50 5. 1859 1c DP9 No.3 ICCS AU50, ICG AU50 - PCGS AU53 6. 1859 1c DP9 No.4 ICCS AU50, CCCS AU50 - PCGS AU55 7. 1859 1c DP9 No.5 ICCS VF30, CCCS VF30 - PCGS EF40 8. 1859 1c TP9 ICCS VF20, ICG VF35 - PCGS VF35 9. 1859 1c TP9 ICCS EF40, CCCS EF40 - PCGS EF45 10. 1859 1c TP9 NGC AU55 - DNC (old cleaning suspected, possibly lacquered, retoned long ago) 11. 1859 1c 9/inverted 9 ICCS EF40, CCCS EF40 - PCGS AU50 12. 1859 1c W9/8 ANACS AU55 - DNC (very light hairlines) 13. 1894 1c Thick 4 ICG MS63 - PCGS MS63 14. 1858 5c Large Date ICCS AU50, ICG AU58 - DNC (light hairlines) 15. 1858 5c Large Date CCCS AU55 - PCGS AU55 16. 1885 5c L5/5 ICCS MS62, CCCS MS62 - PCGS MS62 17. 1886 5c S6 ICCS MS60, CCCS MS60 - DNC (light hairlines) 18. 1858 10c 1st 8/5 ICCS AU55, CCCS AU55 - PCGS AU55 19. 1870 10c N0 0/0 ICCS MS64, CCCS MS65 - PCGS MS64 (ouch, but finest known) 20. 1886 10c Pt6 ICCS AU50, CCCS AU50 - PCGS AU55 21. 1892 10c S9 ICG AU58 - PCGS AU58 22. 1858 20c ICG MS60 - PCGS AU58 23. 1880 25c N/W0 NGC EF45 - PCGS EF45 24. 1886 25c 6/7 ICCS EF40, CCCS EF40 - PCGS EF45 25. 1906 25c Small crown ICCS VG8, ICG VG8 - PCGS VG10 (WOW!) 26. 1936 25c Dot NGC AU55 - PCGS AU55 27. 1936 25c Bar SEGS MS63 Pittman - PCGS MS64 (WOW!, but lost the Pittman Name on the Slab) 28. 1872 50c ICCS AU58, CCCS AU58 - DNC (not sure why, maybe AU55?) 29. 1900 50c ICCS AU58, CCCS AU58 - DNC (questionable colour - beautiful toning that goes into shades of purple) 30. 1900 50c NGC AU58 - PCGS AU55 31. 1900 50c ICG AU58 - PCGS AU58 32. NF 1882 20c ICG AU53 - DNC (light hairlines) 33. NF 1888 20c ICG AU58 - PCGS AU55 34. NF 1885 50c ICG AU50 - PCGS EF45 35. NF 1898 50c SW ICG AU50 - PCGS AU50 36. NF 1898 50c LW ICG AU58 - PCGS AU55 37. NF 1899 50c ICG AU58 - DNC (moderate hairlines, I should have known better but decided to test the waters anyways) 38. NF 1917C 50c ICCS MS64, CCCS MS64 - DNC (not sure why, maybe it was a MS63, my cutoff was MS64) 39. NB 1864 5c L6 ICCS AU50, CCCS AU50 - PCGS AU55 40. 1870 25c 5/5 ICCS AU50, CCCS AU50 - PCGS AU55 To summarize, 30 of 40 coins crossed over. The most common reason for coins not crossing over was light hairlines. These could be found in ICCS, CCCS, NGC, ICG or ANACS holders. PCGS seems to be the most strict TPG regarding any hairlines, even very light ones. ICG and NGC grades run similar to PCGS. I didn't have enough ANACS coins but I would expect the same. Biggest pleasant surprise was PCGS upgrading two ICG coins (including a 1906 small crown) and even a SEGS coin!! I had mixed feelings about the 1936 25c bar going from SEGS MS63 to PCGS MS64 but losing the Pittman label ...oh well, you can't have it all. ICCS and CCCS will upgrade 5-10 points in PCGS in the VF-EF range, on a fairly regular basis. However, anything goes in AU50+. Several ICCS/CCCS AU58s didn't cross over to PCGS and I wasn't sure why. Overall, I was very happy with the experience, although the order took FOREVER, and with a dozen calls into PCGS, their customer service are truly lame ducks (they will say they have NO idea what's going on with your order and there is nothing you can do but wait). But for the added market value, the hassle was totally worth it. Edited by canadian-varieties 07/08/2015 11:26 pm Report this Post to the Staff

Smallcentguy Pillar of the Community Canada 1984 Posts	Posted 07/08/2015 11:25 pm Very interesting post. I currently have 37 coins at PCGS, 34 of which are in for crossover (all now ICCS). I am playing a different game than you, so to speak, so the data set for you does not necessarily translate for me. The key question for me is what PCGS defines as red. I will post my results when ready. I am now 4 to 5 weeks into the process. Report this Post to the Staff
canadian-varieties Pillar of the Community Canada 1442 Posts	Posted 07/08/2015 11:29 pm Wonderful! Indeed, my data set is a cross-section of Victorian bronze and silver, mostly in the EF-AU range. It's a small sample, statistically, but it still gives some rough ideas... I was so happy with the experience though, that I'm considering doing another batch :) Report this Post to the Staff
Smallcentguy Pillar of the Community Canada 1984 Posts	Posted 07/08/2015 11:57 pm Just as a supplement, I have had 2 pre-confederation coins back from PCGS in the last week or two. They were identified as genuine by PCGS after CCCS decided they were non-genuine. Needless to say I am happy with the PCGS decision and I would not have submitted them to PCGS if I thought CCCS was correct. Report this Post to the Staff
SPP-Ottawa Moderator Canada 10459 Posts	Posted 07/09/2015 12:31 am I cannot understand why they would remove the Pittman pedigree... you could probably argue that one with PCGS and have it reinstated (if that sort of thing really matters to you). I have a similar dataset, from CCCS to PCGS specifically with error coins, the grade-point jump was a real eye-opener. "Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert Oppenheimer Content of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_US My eBay store Report this Post to the Staff
Quatchi Valued Member Canada 228 Posts	Posted 07/09/2015 12:39 am Thanks for posting your results Canadian-varieties! Just curious, were most of the ICCS coins you submitted for cross-over more recently graded (3 letter prefix starting with "X") or were they older? Report this Post to the Staff
Everest Pillar of the Community Taiwan 606 Posts	Posted 07/09/2015 03:12 am Thank you for posting Canadian-Varieties. Those pesky hairlines and PCGS do not get along. It has also been my experience that purple toning or shades thereof will get the attention of PCGS. Congratulations on your upgrades especially the 1906 25c Small Crown. Report this Post to the Staff
kanga Pillar of the Community United States 5825 Posts	Posted 07/09/2015 07:51 am My observations strongly indicate that comparing the Canadian graders to the US graders shouldn't be done. They appear to have different grading standards. The same coin will get ½ to 1 grade LOWER from the Canadians when compared to the US graders. Report this Post to the Staff
tripoli Pillar of the Community Canada 867 Posts	Posted 07/09/2015 11:19 am Conclusion: Better for buyers to buy an ICCS coin, and better for sellers to sell PCGS graded coins...I sense an arbitrage opportunity! Report this Post to the Staff
canadian-varieties Pillar of the Community Canada 1442 Posts	Posted 07/09/2015 12:32 pm I've come to really believe the "buy the coin, not the holder" mantra, although in the case of PCGS registry sets, buyers are definitely buying the holder. These days.... ICCS EF40 is not what it used to be, and I can tell you from experience that there are a TON of cleaned and artifically re-toned coins hiding in ICCS holders. I very much hesitate to touch anything ICCS at AU+, and investing in ICCS at MS64 or MS65 is virtually suicidal. I think the large cent and small cent collectors have experienced this very acutely, but to a lesser extent this applies to silver as well. A high end, investment grade Canadian coin HAS to be in a PCGS holder, as collectors like myself will shy away from ICCS based on bad experiences, or will only buy ICCS if it's heavily discounted. A big part of the problem is some of the major Canadian dealers, whose stock is filled with these damaged, cleaned, scratched, environmentally damaged coins in ICCS flips that they turn a blind eye to and sell as if nothing is wrong with them. Edited by canadian-varieties 07/09/2015 12:37 pm Report this Post to the Staff
SPP-Ottawa Moderator Canada 10459 Posts	Posted 07/09/2015 3:19 pm "Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert Oppenheimer Content of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_US My eBay store Report this Post to the Staff
trimble Valued Member Canada 299 Posts	Posted 07/09/2015 5:17 pm Well, if ICCS is trash (and I have more than 2)...hopefully PCGS will open a Canadian branch! I should be able to recover the 15 - 20K cost for hard slabbing due to the expected grade increases. Report this Post to the Staff
Coinfrog Bedrock of the Community United States 94367 Posts	Posted 07/09/2015 5:35 pm Thanks very much for posting your considerable effort. Most informative. Report this Post to the Staff
jdmern Pillar of the Community United States 1949 Posts	Posted 07/09/2015 5:38 pm Excellent post CV, I've noticed PCGS has started acknowledging many many more Canadian varieties, which I think in the long road, is a phenomenal move for PCGS... As one commentary, I have noticed that on Canadian silver, nearly all ICCS MS60's would be considered UNC details by PCGS Boardwalk Numismatics http://stores.ebay.com/jdmern/ https://boardwalknumismatics.com Report this Post to the Staff
canadian-varieties Pillar of the Community Canada 1442 Posts	Posted 07/10/2015 3:33 pm This is a great example of what's happened to ICCS EF40 recently... This coin would barely make a VF20 in an older ICCS holder: http://www.icollector.com/Nfld-1873...ev_i22699620 or take this example of a coin that would never make it into a PCGS, NGC, ICG or ANACS holder due to the big scratches on the face: http://www.icollector.com/Nfld-1873...ne_i22699621 Edited by canadian-varieties 07/10/2015 3:36 pm Report this Post to the Staff
Everest Pillar of the Community Taiwan 606 Posts	Posted 07/10/2015 5:43 pm It appears from numerous posts that ICCS is not as conservative as it once was.I believe that PCGS has drifted the other direction. All the coins that I have submitted to PCGS were from the early ICCS flips. It was not unusual for the vast majority of the coins to upgrade. A few months ago after a lapse of a couple of years I submitted eight coins to PCGS. All the coins crossed at grade except for a 1929 5c piece that was bumped to a 65. All the coins were removed from their ICCS flips prior to submission. The coins can be viewed at the PCGS website. Certificate # 30741405-30741412. But remember,just because the coin is in a newer PCGS slab does not mean that it is a currently graded coin.It could be a reholdered coin from years ago. Report this Post to the Staff
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