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Rapid Toning Of Lincoln Memorials

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Biedercoins's Avatar
United States
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 Posted 07/13/2015  08:20 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Biedercoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Hi,

I had a really weird thing happen last week. Maybe somebody can help me understand what happened. I found a jar of about 200 pennies in a box of stuff from my parents house. I'd put the pennies in the jar back in the seventies and completely forgotten them. So I open up the jar (which had an open slit in the top, so air could have entered/exited) and dumped them out on the floor to see what was there. About half brown wheats and half memorials. Some of the memorials were nice and bright as if right from the roll.

Skip ahead...I left them there for about 45 minute while I got distracted looking for some tubes. When I came back, the bright memorials had taken on a purple shade. Lost almost all brightness with just a little remaining around the letters and date.

What happened? Oxygen, light, coins long touching being seperated?

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my10cents's Avatar
United States
7 Posts
 Posted 07/13/2015  11:33 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add my10cents to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I read that mineral oil will likely turn the Copper coin purple.
I dont know haw fast but some might have been in the jar.
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Cascade's Avatar
United States
7390 Posts
 Posted 07/13/2015  11:47 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Cascade to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting. Reminds me of rapid oxidation like what happens to shipwreck items if not properly adjusted to the atmosphere?

I'm sure BadThad will weigh in when he posts today's wheats in the tribute thread
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Scropper's Avatar
United States
702 Posts
 Posted 07/13/2015  1:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Scropper to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Was it warm?

My guess is they they had somehow taken on a light and thin coating while in the jar and when exposed to heat and fresh air, that coating turned.

Very interested to hear what the chemistry experts have to say!
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BadThad's Avatar
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19943 Posts
 Posted 07/13/2015  3:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BadThad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is very unusual, copper toning takes time, like a months and years time scale unless subjected to high heat. I suspect your eyes are playing tricks on you and the change was there but you just didn't notice at first. How about posting some pictures?
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BadThad's Avatar
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 Posted 07/13/2015  3:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BadThad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I read that mineral oil will likely turn the Copper coin purple.


That's bologna unless the oil is highly contaminated with sulfur, phosphorus or chlorine and given years to work the change. Oil (a hydrocarbon mixture) in itself is completely non-reactive with metals.
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Garoyn's Avatar
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513 Posts
 Posted 07/13/2015  3:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Garoyn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
difference in light and viewing angles between t=0 and t=45 minutes? Different light source (e.g., cloudy to direct sun?; no overhead light source to overhead light source?)?
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my10cents's Avatar
United States
7 Posts
 Posted 07/13/2015  4:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add my10cents to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I did not verify what I read. I am new to the forum. I also don't know if I am allowed to post links. but in this post on Helping damaged coins the author posted " Soak in mineral oil for ages, then use acetone to remove all surface spotting possible. Then recoat with oil and dab with the soft cloth. Will not remove everything, but will make the coin a little more acceptable. This WILL LIKELY turn the coin purple, but that's better than green." with the coins mixed in a jar and you don't know if any were cleaned I thought this might be and answer to your question.
BadThad I see your point.
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BadThad's Avatar
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 Posted 07/13/2015  5:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BadThad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
" Soak in mineral oil for ages, then use acetone to remove all surface spotting possible. Then recoat with oil and dab with the soft cloth. Will not remove everything, but will make the coin a little more acceptable. This WILL LIKELY turn the coin purple, but that's better than green."


Well, this is a PRIME example of why you shouldn't believe everything on the web. First off, mineral oil is NOT soluble in acetone, you must use xylene or another non-polar solvent to remove oils (including the often recommended olive oil).

Secondly, where the author was dead-wrong, it appears he was trying to address the removal of verdigris. Verdigris salts are insoluble in oil, oil is the WORST possible choice for this and oft recommended by the ignorant.

Finally, oil will NOT "turn a coin purple". I have no idea where he came up with that load....it's 100% incorrect.

Welcome to the CC forums! I'm not trying to dig on you, it's just that misinformation spreads like wildfire. I don't want a "google searcher" finding this thread and then believing these things are true when they are not. The volume of bad information on coin conservation over the web far exceeds the good!
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moxking's Avatar
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 Posted 07/13/2015  5:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add moxking to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
BadThad. That rubbish has to be dealt with so that no one is mistaken about this being an "opinion". Fact is fact.
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jbuck's Avatar
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 Posted 07/13/2015  6:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I don't want a "google searcher" finding this thread and then believing these things are true when they are not. The volume of bad information on coin conservation over the web far exceeds the good!
Well done.
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CelticKnot's Avatar
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12819 Posts
 Posted 07/13/2015  8:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CelticKnot to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Great writeup, BadThad.

And , my10cents. Keep on coming to the forums and you'll learn a lot. I do DAILY.

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Biedercoins's Avatar
United States
1601 Posts
 Posted 07/13/2015  9:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Biedercoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As far as lighting differences, no, there wasn't different. I was in the same spot. Same for angle of viewing. I can't really post pictures that would help because I don't have a "before" for comparison.

Two variables that I considered were 1)that the only light source I was using was direct sunlight and 2) I was sorting the coins on a wool carpet. We know what full spectrum light does to coins, but it usually takes longer. As for the wool, I hope this is not another mineral oil meme, but I thought I'd read somewhere that "natural" fibers were not good for some metals.

So, yes, I'd like to hear what the chemists have to say about it.
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CoinHuntingDrew's Avatar
United States
4932 Posts
 Posted 07/16/2015  11:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinHuntingDrew to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I've had a similar experience, however it usually happens in the summertime (currently going on now, but my coin room hasn't been too too hot, sometimes gets to over 100* in there)

Anyways, my coins on my tables that are UNC, or near UNC that I have laying around often times during the summer, you start to notice that they are dull. That's because the dirt from someone's fingerprint has now left a permanent brown mark on the coin, and at the beginning of the summer it wasn't there.

Your story is different, however.
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Biedercoins's Avatar
United States
1601 Posts
 Posted 07/17/2015  11:08 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Biedercoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
CoinHunterDrew,

It's definitely similar. Fingerprints I didn't see on some of the bright coins showed fingerprints along with the purplish toning. And I should stress here that by bright coins I'm talking about the ones you get in change that are basically EF to AU, right out of a bank roll. They went from my pocket to the jar. The latest penny in there was 1981, the year I graduated high school, so no funky, copper plated zinc-lings.

I wish I had a dedicated coin-room. I used to work in an area of the basement that was cool and constant, but it's lit by an overhead CF-spot and a full spectrum floor lamp. The idea of the full spectrum light was to supplement sparse winter sunlight during long WI winters. However, one time I left some stacked coins, including SBA and Eisenhower clad dollars out on the desk. The light got left on for a couple days and when I went back to the coins, all the top coins in the stacks had blackened. I need a new lamp. BTW, what's the best light to use when working with coins? Have you seen a thread on that topic?
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Half's Avatar
United States
606 Posts
 Posted 07/17/2015  1:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Half to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
From what I have read, some companies use Regular incandescent lights when looking at coins for purchase.
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