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1861-O Half Dollar Attribution

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kevro22's Avatar
United States
250 Posts
 Posted 07/18/2015  5:14 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add kevro22 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Hi all. I would like to know if this 1861-O half dollar can be attributed to Federal, Louisiana or Confederate production. I'd grade this in AG/G so don't know if enough sufficient detail for a diagnostic has worn away but I'd appreciate any feedback. I do know about the die crack at Liberty's nose and that is not present on this one that I can see. Thank you.

1861-O-Half-Dollar-Attribution

1861-O-Half-Dollar-Attribution
Edited by kevro22
07/18/2015 5:19 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
5206 Posts
 Posted 07/18/2015  9:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jack jeckel to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It doesn't look like it has any of the 3 die markers for the CSA issue.

http://107.21.32.92/index.php/seate...lars-1861-o/

My WB-104 should be back from the ANACS insider free grading special on Wednesday

I thought I found a WB-102 on ebay but when I got it the nose crack was only in the toning

http://coins.ha.com/itm/confederate.../1216-5847.s

"As things turned out, the New Orleans Mint struck coins under the auspices of three different governments in 1861. From January 1 to January 26, the mint remained under federal control and a total of 330,000 Seated Liberty half dollars and 5,000 Liberty double eagles was coined. The State of Louisiana assumed control of the mint from January 26 through March 31, and a coinage of 1,240,000 half dollars and 9,750 double eagles was accomplished. Finally, the Confederacy officially took over the facility on April 1, and struck 962,633 half dollars and 2,991 double eagles before closing the mint on April 30, 1861"

I wish I would have saved the ebay sellers pic which showed what looked like the crack.

1861-O-Half-Dollar-Attribution

1861-O-Half-Dollar-Attribution

1861-O-Half-Dollar-Attribution

1861-O-Half-Dollar-Attribution


Edited by jack jeckel
07/18/2015 9:22 pm
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Scropper's Avatar
United States
702 Posts
 Posted 07/18/2015  10:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Scropper to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'd say with high certainty this is the 102 obverse die and although you don't feel the crack is present, I see marks on the coin that align perfectly with where the crack should be.

I grade the coin strong 6.
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kevro22's Avatar
United States
250 Posts
 Posted 07/19/2015  07:29 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kevro22 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Scropper- can you let me know what you're seeing that I don't? It is pretty smooth where I thought the crack would be. Are there other indicators? thanks
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Conder101's Avatar
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 Posted 07/20/2015  09:54 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Even blowing up the pictures as much as I can isn't really helping me. Are there any die cracks on the rev? I've been able to eliminate Obvs 3 and 6 and revs A and F. Is there a strong Longacre doubling halo around the eagle?
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kevro22's Avatar
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 Posted 07/20/2015  8:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kevro22 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I don't see any die cracks on the reverse, but don't really know where to look. Are the various dies illustrated online anywhere? I'm usually good at finding stuff on the internet but with this I've had no luck. Thanks
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chevelle7167's Avatar
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89 Posts
 Posted 07/20/2015  10:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chevelle7167 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I own several examples of the 102 die crack coin from VG to high AU. This coin to me does not have the same attributes. I do not think that either PCGS or NGC would either.
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ExoGuy's Avatar
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4416 Posts
 Posted 07/21/2015  12:15 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ExoGuy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Having cherried a few of these, myself, over the years, I agree with Chevelle's comments. That said, looking closely at the field, I can see a feint line, perhaps a scratch or toning effect, which caused me to do a double-take. I wouldn't totally rule out the possibility that this coin is PERHAPS an early die state of the WB-102; this, in deference to Rusty's eye. There's no evidence of the crack impacting the bridge of the nose.

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kevro22's Avatar
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250 Posts
 Posted 07/21/2015  05:52 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kevro22 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Other than the crack by the nose what are the other diagnostics? Is there somewhere I can go to see the different die varieties you are all mentioning? Thanks
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Conder101's Avatar
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 Posted 07/21/2015  3:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I erred yesterday. I was looking at the wrong coin. (The OP coins were not showing up) Today the OP coin pictures are showing. The coin has a level date which indicates obv 3 or 6. (The CSA half dollar used obv 5) Obv 3 was used by both Louisiana and the Confederacy, obv 6 by just the Confederacy. Obv 6 almost always comes with a vertical crack bisecting the date between the 8 and 6. I don't see that on your coin so it is probably obv 3. I do't see a crack through stars 9 -12 on the obv, and I don't see a strong Longacre doubling halo around the eagles left wing so I think this is probably W-09 (Obv 3 rev B) which would make it struck by the Confederacy and struck before they made the CSA half dollar. (The WB book only describe the most noticeable varieties WB-101 was a "catch all" number that covered ten different varieties, 102 was for the obv that was paired withthe CSA die, but that obverse was also used before it cracked and those would have been included in the 101 variety. 103 and 104 are easily attributable varieties and were both struck by the Confederacy. 103 is actually two varieties Obv 6 with the vertically bisected date paired with rev E, and with rev F the speared berry rev. 104 is also two varieties, one of which is also 103. It is the speared berry rev rev E paired wth obv 6 the bisected date, and obv 1 which was originally used by the Union. 103 and 104 are now listed as W-13, 14, and 15.)
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kevro22's Avatar
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 Posted 07/21/2015  3:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kevro22 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wow Conder - that's a lot of good info. Is this online anywhere? So are you saying my coin was struck by independent Louisiana prior to joining the Confederacy, or after they joined? This is not a Union half? Thanks
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Scropper's Avatar
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702 Posts
 Posted 07/21/2015  10:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Scropper to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm not saying your coin was cracked, but I noticed that there are marks exactly where the crack would be, which I found interesting.

I overlaid the image of your coin over my cracked CSA and an example from the PCGS website, as well as a few of the other obverses. Everything aligned perfectly with the cracked CSAs, so it seemed to me it's either a 102 or as Conder101 said, a pre-cracked 101. Didn't check the reverse. A few things were out of alignment with the other obverse dies I checked against.
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kevro22's Avatar
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 Posted 07/29/2015  06:45 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kevro22 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Scropper! Can I assume the consensus is then that my half (the one in the first post) is an early CSA half before the die crack happened?
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Conder101's Avatar
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 Posted 07/29/2015  10:56 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
So are you saying my coin was struck by independent Louisiana prior to joining the Confederacy, or after they joined?

By the Confederacy, after LA joined. And it is NOT the die they used for the CSA half dollar. If you use WB numbers it would be a WB-101. Using Wiley numbers (f I am right) it is W-09 and was the first variety that the Confederacy struck. (The Union struck 2 varieties, LA struck 6, and the Confederacy struck 6.)
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kevro22's Avatar
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250 Posts
 Posted 07/29/2015  11:04 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kevro22 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks! I bought this half for $70 a year or so ago. Neither I or the seller knew if it was Union or Confederecy, at the time I just wanted this date and mintmark. That's cool that it is Confederacy. Where can I find a breakdown of the WB and Wiley numbers?
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