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 Replies: 15 / Views: 1,818 |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1223 Posts |
This is a coin that should be recognized the same as the 1881H with the round the clock doubling. I realize this is a coin that serious collectors will look for but for someone not all that informed on 1881's they may not even realize it's out there. It has been mistaken on many occasions in the past as the 1881H with round the clock doubling. With very few letters that do not show some kind of double or triple punching this coin is every bit as impressive as the one recognized in the front section of the latest Charlton cat. Perhaps there should be a type #1 and type #2 distinction for this variety. . Cheers, Bill    |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
3234 Posts |
Would this "ARTC" variety..(almost round the clock) 1881 cent be caused by a form of hub doubling..?
Nice to see more varieties in the varieties..
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
5591 Posts |
When we wrote the variety section in the 65th edition, it was NOT an all-inclusive list of what's out there. Our direction was to show the "kinds" or "types" of varieties that can or could be found for that specific date or Obverse portrait. As originally written, there were RTC or almost RTC doublings with L/R, R/L, or N-S doublings, and we couldn't put them all in and the descriptions were shortened. There will never be a comprehensive list of everything that can be found and I thought that this was clear to nearly everyone, especially those from the CCRS days. We got 80 pages and that was it. Our goal was to raise awareness and interest and that we did in spades. I think that Haxby's up to well over 200 for the 1859's alone, and even more so with the marriage pairings.. you could have books the thickness of 10 Charltons and still not have everything that is out there for all the Vickies. In actuality, there could be types 1-6 for the RTC's or nearly RTC's.
Edited by okiecoiner
08/07/2015 5:07 pm
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
1223 Posts |
Quote " When we wrote the variety section in the 65th edition, it was NOT an all-inclusive list of what's out there." end quote
Hi there oakiecoiner, It's the latest issue of Charlton I'm referring to not the 2011. I agree there are lots of 1881H coins with doubling but there are only two 1881H with excessive doubling like this one and the one listed in the front section of the latest Charlton. I question why they place the one and not the other which is as blatantly visible as the one they mention. The coin in the OP has doubling that is more pronounced then the coin moved to the front section of Charlton. I'm not questioning why it was not selected for the 2011 variety section but it certainly shouldn't be ignored because it wasn't. I know there are people who believe they have the 1881H RTC shown in the present day Charlton when in fact they have this one. I was merely suggesting that a type 1 and type 2 would be a logical solution for two coins that equally deserve the distinction.
Cheers, Bill
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Valued Member
Canada
491 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5591 Posts |
Hounddog; I'm going from memoery here, but I think that there are 4 simlat to your and the RTC and 2 more where it is relegated mostly to Gratia and the first part of Regina. There is some hub or Machine Doubling in some of them and then D/P or T/P over the top of them. The '81's are my favorite series. |
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Pillar of the Community
New Zealand
1679 Posts |
Quote:
In actuality, there could be types 1-6 for the RTC's or nearly RTC's Heres 3 and I think at least 1 of them is in that lot    Cheers Don
Vickies cents and GB Farthings nut.
"Old" is a figure of speech and nothing more
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1223 Posts |
Fourmack great looking coins but none of the three shown are the coins that I'm referring to. If you can enlarge the OP pictures you can see the degree of offset and the number of attempts to correct "C & T" in Victoria is very distinct. The obverse legend has 29 letters and on the coin in the original post there's obvious doubling on 24 off the 29 with only the "G", "R" & "O"not showing obvious doubling ( there may very well be doubling on these letters also if you saw one in mint condition). There is a great marker that you can use for this particular coin or die here's a couple close-up pictures one of the "N" in Regina (centre punch used on bottom left serif) and the other of the distinctive doubling and tripling of the "C" & "T" in Victoria. Devlec about the hub doubling question I was kind of hoping someone would jump in with an affirmative answer on that because as I'm just not sure. I believe there may be some hub doubling involved yes but for the most part It's believed it was created during the annealing and pressing stages where the die during the heating and cooling was actually a different size between presses. Cheers, Bill   |
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Pillar of the Community
New Zealand
1679 Posts |
Ok now I see what you mean
Cheers Don
Vickies cents and GB Farthings nut.
"Old" is a figure of speech and nothing more
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Valued Member
United States
302 Posts |
This important die has been discussed a number of times in past forums. Sadly, it seems to be misdiagnosed again and again. In the Canadian coin and token catalog I wrote for Whitman in 2012 I included this variety and called it for what it is: the Mixed Font Variety. What's primarily, if not exclusively, going on with this die is defective letters in the legend being repaired (by repunching) with those of a different font. Note particularly the Cs, Ts and Is. This is by no means the only example of mixed fonts in the Canadian large cent series. Check out the obverse legends (esp. the Ds, Cs and the Es) on the 1891-92 Obverse 3 cents vs. the 1890H Obv. 3 cents. There are others, too. Not all letter doubling is double struck dies!
Edited by JHax
08/08/2015 8:47 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5591 Posts |
Here is the same one, Bill, but I don't photo well, so this is an old QX-5 shot from maybe 5 years ago.  |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
3234 Posts |
Quote:
This important die has been discussed a number of times in past forums. Sadly, it seems to be misdiagnosed again and again. "Mixed Fonts Variety"...Thanks for the clarification. ..and as a relative newbie on these varieties,..I will try to get the 81's and 82's straight. I'm hoping that Rob's book will also explain this in his 90 to 92 text.. |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
638 Posts |
Very nice coin Hounddog Bill!
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Valued Member
Canada
491 Posts |
Mixed Fonts very interesting I'll have to go check out my 91 and 92
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1223 Posts |
Hi JHax, I thank you for the response and enlightenment. I do recall discussions on earlier forums dealing with the 91-92 large cents but I don't recall this coin being referred to as having mixed fonts also. The theory I presented earlier was from Rob Turners excellent book "Dies and Diadems" however upon closer inspection and rereading the chapter he's talking about a different coin completely.
Okiecoiner that's the one... same as the original post. I've been searching for the 1881 RTC you guy's featured in the 2011 cat. also but I'm having a hard time finding even one. The coin I presented here in the original post I've found three.
I originally post this coin because I thought it was a really cool coin myself and just wanted to make more people aware of it. Now after the discussion that followed which was very informative I will be marking the three I have as Mixed Font Varieties. Thanks to everyone for there kind words and comments.
Is it just me that's learnt something new here?
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Valued Member
Canada
491 Posts |
No HounddogBill I have thought of this variety as punched doubling RTC, I knew this variety had it to the left or the right thanks to Bill's knowledge. The font mixed variety is something total new to me, this is the first time I've heard of it.
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Replies: 15 / Views: 1,818 |
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Posted 08/07/2015 5:05 pm
