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 Replies: 10 / Views: 1,081 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1283 Posts |
Are there various die variations just like the 1922 Plain?
I've looked at some for sale, and some on closed auctions with Heritage. Some are designated as "Die 1" or "Die 2" and "Die 3". And I've seen some described as "type 1" two, or three.
Can someone elaborate on this and explain the differences between the dies, and in what order they are valued?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
936 Posts |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts |
As noted on that web site. However, if you start looking for one you'll notice the prices are climbing continuously on the first type rather dramatically. Not sure why but that 72 is becoming as popular as the 55 double die.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1130 Posts |
Yeah, don't make the mistake and get anything but the Die 1. I bought a Die 3 and could barely see the error, even under glass.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3507 Posts |
Considering all the known Doubled Dies on the 1972 P D and S cents, there are around 13 or 14 different varieties. Stick with Die #1 and you cant go wrong. Make sure its the big one. The fact is that there are others that are much more rare and they should be worth more but because the first one is so evident it sells for more. The rarest is a 1972 S business strike DDO that I discovered a few years ago. There are only 2 known. You can see a picture of the "Big" 1972 DDO on the VARIETIES section of my webpage. To try to go through all the varieties without pictures would basically be an exercise in futility. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
936 Posts |
Bill,
I have been trying to get a die 4 for some time (the only one I am missing), I lost one by a few cents a few months ago. There was one up last week but it got taken down, must of sold on the side.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7629 Posts |
Okay, a few things here...
The "die variations" as you call them are different dies...not variations of anything. Each different die had a different amount of doubling and its own markers. Those that had very similar doubling are easily identifiable by markers. (CHRSB take note: Die #4 and #7 are very similar and are often mislabeled).
The 1922 cents without mintmarks are simple cases of die erosion or filled dies. Very common occurrences that made no other date's coins valuable because every other date had P mint cents with no mintmarks. If I had a 1923S cent without a mintmark for sale at hundreds of dollars, people would think I was a lunatic (even more than usual) - but get a 1922 cent for sale without a mintmark, and I personally think everyone in the market at over 1922D prices are lunatics. There's really no difference between the two, technically.
Back to doubled dies...completely different subject from 1922 cents.
There are at least nine different recognized dies for the Philly mint alone, and some are much more valuable than others, not necessarily because of their visibility, but also because of rarity. Listed in order of value are:
die #1 - the big one: around $500 to more than $2000 in BU.
die #2 - secondary to die #1 but still major: around $100 to $200 in BU.
die #4 - minor but rare: around $80 to over $150 in BU.
die #6 - another minor but rare one: around $50 to over $100 in BU.
die #9 - only on the 2 of the date, but scarce: around $25 to over $75 in BU.
die #7 - minor and somewhat scarce: around $20-$50 in BU.
die #3 or die #8 - somewhat common and less visible than 2 but more than 4, 6, or 7: around $15-$30 in BU.
Now...die #10 is confirmed by some, not by others. Die #5 is what the master die doubling used to be listed as, and was vacant for years after relisting the master die doubling correctly as master die doubling instead of a doubled die. This is a different subject entirely, but answers for why I didn't list doe #10 or die #5 above.
I hope this helps more than it hurts.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7629 Posts |
By the way, values for die #1 are rather mainstream and are unlikely to fluctuate much from standard guides. Values for die #2 are all over the board because they are not listed by the major guides. I have seen MS63 examples sell for $150 recently and have seen MS65 examples sell for the same price. I hve also seen MS65 examples sell for over $500.
The "minor dies" for sale are usually always dies #3 or #8, which are nearly identical in appearance except for some easy to spot markers...most notably, die gouges above both Ts of TRUST on die #8, and a die gouge under the front of the lapel on die #3. Those are my first markers that I look for.
Anyhow, dies #3 and #8 are the most common of all 1972 doubled dies and are generally sold by knowledged collectors and dealers at decent prices in red BU conditions - somewhere in the neigborhood of mid two-digits. Sometimes dealers who run into a group of them will sell them for as little as $10 because they aren't the biggie, and the dealers have little clue of what they are holding.
Now....SOMETIMES....dealers will have some of the far scarcer dies for sale at the same $10. These are the ones to learn and JUMP ON when you see them. Dies #7, #4, and #6 - especially #4 - are REAL winners at under $20 for BU examples, even though they are quite minor.
Die #9 is very rarely sold as a doubled die. They are much more likely to be found as normal 1972 cents for under a buck...but finding one will be tough. Well, very tough. I have cherrypicked ONE in 25 years of looking through dealer stock. I did find over a dozen in a BU roll once, but that's very unusual.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7629 Posts |
Now, for D mint...
There are a few different recognized dies, and I know very little of any of them outside of die #1 and die #2. Both are about the same visibility, which would compare to being very slightly more minor than 1972P dies #3 and #8. Both of the aforementioned 1972D doubled dies are pretty scarce, and should command decent values - anywhere between $25 and $75 in BU. Both are class 1 and show best in the motto. Die #2 is known to have a "broken top" to the O of GOD. This is due to die overpolishing.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7629 Posts |
Now for S mint...
Two different ones of note that I am aware of and look for. One is proof, the other is business strike.
You're actually more likely to find the proof than the business strike, even though logic would dicate that the business strike is far more common. Only a handful of either are known to exist, and both are quite valuable. Over $100 for decent BU specimens is a no-brainer, and prices closer to $300 should be expected for GEM quality pieces, if ever offered. They are both class 1 rotated hub doubling, and compare to dies #4 and #7 in their Philly mint relatives for visibility....pretty minor, but rarity is the name of the game for this mint.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
936 Posts |
quote:
The 1922 cents without mintmarks are simple cases of die erosion or filled dies. Very common occurrences that made no other date's coins valuable because every other date had P mint cents with no mintmarks. If I had a 1923S cent without a mintmark for sale at hundreds of dollars, people would think I was a lunatic (even more than usual) - but get a 1922 cent for sale without a mintmark, and I personally think everyone in the market at over 1922D prices are lunatics. There's really no difference between the two, technically.
If the RedBook and all of the books did not have a hole for this then they would be sold for regular prices. I personally think this is why the matte proofs were so cheap for so long, there were no holes on the books for these. The same goes for the 36-42 proofs and all the other proofs that do not have holes in the Danso and Whiteman albums. I still think they are all undervalued, even though the matte proofs have made some big moves upward as more Lincoln collectors have noticed them and found out they exist. For the longest time I did not know any other proofs existed until I was at a coin show and saw a 1958 proof for $5. That got me interested in the "other" proofs and I started buying them. |
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Replies: 10 / Views: 1,081 |
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Posted 01/07/2008 12:01 am
