Edge Ribbon Seam. A Doubt

I din't need to go to the bank I found an old photo buried away:



What I am questioning is the claimed edge seam on a counterfeit reales pictured in the book. If you look at the picture above check the rim saw tooth pattern. You will see a circumferential line dividing the "teeth" In the book its claimed to be the point that Silver wire has been attached to the counterfeit to hide the copper core. Problem is my picture is of a genuine coin struck in 1777. I had been told the line was an artifact of the striking process. I have been doing some more digging by going through my old antique silver references. Old Sheffield plate was a premium product only the rich could afford table ware made with it. In some cases Old Sheffield plate sold new was more expensive than sterling silver, the reason being was that the proper sterling silver required less man hours to produce goods from it. I am starting to find it hard understanding the economics of using old Sheffield plate for counterfeits. Certainly in the 1790s and early 19th century when silver prices had dropped Old Sheffield plate counterfeits would most likely cost more than just producing the coins from the correct alloy. That said Old Sheffield plate would produce extremely high quality counterfeits. I could imagine for a specific deal/Con prior to the 1790s that with large scale production the economics might be good.

Thanks for the comments. I started this query because I am looking at buying a very nice counterfeit eight reales at the moment( not e bay) I was checking the book and then saw the picture. The coin I am looking at is late 18th century and from the photos appears to be brass. From my understanding of Old Sheffield plate brass doesn't work. Also the plating has worn of in ways that doesn't match my experience with Old Sheffield plate( has a very distinct patina), however my experience with OSP is with antique tableware. Most silver specialists will tell people off for replating OSP in much the same way we tell people off for using brass cleaner on coins.

BTW the counterfeit on the bottom of page 251 of the book is most likely of North African ( Egypt or Sudan) Manufacture very similar to an MTT counterfeit I have. which dates to early 19th century, for me the key is the S instead of an 8( it could also be Ethiopian but I would put my bet on Sudan). It is also similar in style to the Counterfeit Venetian ducats from that area and time period
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I Think it is incredibly unlikely The Royal Mint would produce counterfeits, the legal situation and punishments for such an action just makes it seem a ridiculous idea. Just the reputational damage to The Royal Mint, and His majesty's coin would rule against The Royal Mint as a producer. It would have been financial suicide for the nation for The Royal Mint to be found counterfeiting coin. Even if gvt approval for such an action was taken the work would have been done by some other producer so as to keep The Royal Mint "clean"

Much more likely would be one( or a number) of the numerous die sinking firms in Birmingham who supported the Soho mint and the later Birmingham mint. I am reasonably confident of the improbability of the London mint producing fakes as I am with the Soho, and Birmingham mints. For all three their success was dependent on their reputation. I researched literature statements about the Birmingham mint producing counterfeit 8 reales and found in the original documents that were cited the term was "firms in Birmingham", subsequent authors just assumed it was the Birmingham mint

Ian, your doubts as to The Royal Mint's culpability are understandable, but this was in the line of economic warfare. Pretty much on the lines of Operation Bernhard.

My doubts( I was being polite) are based on numerous visits to the national Archives in the UK, the national library and to the mints historical services in wales. I will be heaps more blunt now the idea is improbable in all realistic scenarios.

You are confusing money types( bullion and Managed money) and cultural ( time based) attitudes with your reference to Bernhardt .


Bernhardt was a means to destabilize the UK using forged notes. it occurred at a time when each country had identifiably different money. At the much earlier time and very different era when these OSP counterfeit were made the Spanish dollar was in use in the UK; a time when no country would counterfeit a coin they used. Your comment suggests to me you don't have a feel for the different historical contexts.( I suggest you, at the barest minimum, read the first chapter of Kelly's "Spanish Dollars and Silver Tokens I think then you might understand how out of sync your economic warfare comment is)


If the British gvt decided to issue counterfeit coin, they would have isolated the Bank of England and the mint from any possible fallout. In such a scenario the production would have been conducted by some other manufacturer. I still find such a scenario hard to imagine but it is a lot more realistic than suspecting The Royal Mint of being the source of the counterfeits.

Producing OSP in the quantities required required unique tooling and skills, The Royal Mint did not have the equipment to produce it and to buy in the OSP sheets would have left a trail of evidence that would have been impossible to hide.

The St Patrick coppers ( I have no idea who produced them and they are outside of my field of interest) were produced in the 17th century and are generally regarded( as most likely being produced in Dublin 1674-1675.

But for the sake of your argument (at least the one you seem to be leading up to) lets assume they were produced at the London mint. In that case it does not do anything to support the suspicions that OSP 8 reale counterfeits were produced at The Royal Mint.

But lets just make this clear the attitude The Royal Mint had, in the 17th and 18th centuries, to copper coin does make it hard to imagine that the London mint produced the St Patricks coppers, it is my understanding that why they are thought to have been produced in Dublin




In the 18th century and later it is improbable that The Royal Mint produced such counterfeits. the Historical, and economic factors tend (strongly) to suggest against it.

If you look at the likely time period of the OSP counterfeiting( Old Sheffield plate produced from 1740- cica 1840/50) we know the UK was suffering a shortage of small change to the point Birmingham mint manufacturers were producing tradesman's tokens to fill the gap. Using Occam's razor it is far more likely manufacturers of those tokens produced the counterfeits

That is certainly the case in the 1880s when counterfeit Dollars ( spanish type) were produced in Birmingham for use in Lagos Nigeria: Colonial Office file number: CO/147/41, Griffiths to Ussher, April 29 1880. IN this time frame a number of Birmingham die sinkers were producing tradesman Tokens for New Zealand and Australia.


FYI: I found that file hunting for information on the Maria Theresa thaler, it had been claimed in another reference that the file stated it was Maria Theresa thalers but when I accessed the original Document, to my disappointment: it stated clearly "Spanish dollars")


EDIT: I have done some checking apart from some French plate makers who made an interesting mix of Gold and silver plate one of the key identifiers of Old Sheffield plate is a copper core.

My huge question is what economic Warfare? and a lesser question how was it targeted?

In my understanding of the Historical, social, and economic landscape of the time, the actual concept of deliberately planned Economic warfare seems out of place.

I j now have another question. Are you sure the french used OSP, because they used another method which the English called French plating ( which would work on brass). Have a look at the counterfeit on the top of page 344. the de-lamination of the plate is what one might see from eroding French plate ( silver leaf laid over the surface of the base metal and then "fused" (not quite the right word) by hand rubbing and the addition of heat). OSP sheets when rolled out often had bubbles.. if they could, manufacturers would just avoid using that part of the sheet, If they couldn't they would burst the bubble sand back the blister to good metal and then fill the depression using French plating. on some OSP table ware you can spot such repaired areas by a subtle color change.

{ Not to be confused with the Square,rectangular or round areas of color change which indicate a point of thickened plating to allow for engraving of family crests and monograms}


So it could be that coin was made from a repaired sheet of OSP( noting the copper core) Or it could have been produced from French plate produced perhaps in France.