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Would This Work?

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MichioKaku's Avatar
United States
374 Posts
 Posted 11/30/2015  6:32 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add MichioKaku to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Hey, I just realized something. You can't get a Buffalo nickel hot enough in boiling water, but you can turn a nickel almost red hot in a bonfire. So, could you retrieve the date because the copper core of the nickel was pushed up in higher areas (like the date), and when the nickel is heated, copper conducts heat a bit better than nickel. The copper would expand, thus pushing up the date. Then, you could quickly take the nickel out of the fire and place it ice for it to cool rapidly.

Am just sounding like a total idiot right now?
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Coinfrog's Avatar
United States
94367 Posts
 Posted 11/30/2015  6:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I was told there would be no math.
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MichioKaku's Avatar
United States
374 Posts
 Posted 11/30/2015  7:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MichioKaku to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am sorry, but what do you mean by "no math"?
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llewellin's Avatar
United States
1005 Posts
 Posted 11/30/2015  7:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add llewellin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My guess is no. The nickel consists of a solid alloy of copper and nickel, not a "copper core" as you suggest. So the idea that there is a significant heterogeneity of thermal conductivity in the nickel eludes me. Furthermore, I believe the effect you would be looking for is thermal expansion, not conductivity. Thermal expansion would be reversible at any rate so intuition tells me any effort to recover a date through thermal processing as you suggest would not be very effective.

Partial acid dissolution (nic a date/vinegar) works pretty well I think, but of course is destructive. If your main goal is to recover the date of a dateless coin without altering the coin and reducing its value, I would urge you to look into acoustic microscopy, a technique that has been shown to do just that fairly successfully by mapping internal strain in the metal induced by the planchet striking process. Then again, this is a specialized technique that is not readily available for low cost analysis.
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Buddy's Avatar
United States
7075 Posts
 Posted 11/30/2015  8:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Buddy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I believe that CoinFrog was making a joke because you asked a SCIENCE question.

I suppose your experiment is worth trying. Not sure about the rapid cool.

I do know this -- rapid temperature changes will crack railraod rails. That is the extent of my knowledge in materials science.
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Steele's Avatar
United States
1119 Posts
 Posted 11/30/2015  8:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Steele to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Even if the date was pushed up would anyone be able read it through all te fire damage?
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MichioKaku's Avatar
United States
374 Posts
 Posted 11/30/2015  10:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MichioKaku to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ok. You would hold it with metal tongs, so it would not fall into the fire and get ash all over it. Also, yes the rapid cool would not be a good idea.
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llewellin's Avatar
United States
1005 Posts
 Posted 11/30/2015  10:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add llewellin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
One thing I hadn't considered earlier: if you were to heat the nickel to red hot in a bonfire, the surface would oxidize quickly, changing the appearance of the coin regardless, but this is besides the point. By heating the nickel to red hot, you would effectively anneal the metal, which results in a restructuring of the internal crystallite distribution. This results in removal of internal strain defects in the metal initially caused by the striking, so perhaps this experiment could lead to the unintended consequence of never being able to recover the date from the coin again.

Since the acid etching relies on crystallite distribution and strain imparted by the striking to create contrast, annealing the coin in a fire would get rid of these features, so you might not be able to do the etching trick on the coin afterwards. I think that would be a cool experiment to try.
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MichioKaku's Avatar
United States
374 Posts
 Posted 11/30/2015  10:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MichioKaku to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well not to red hot, but just till slightly soft or plastic.
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OldSkoolMadSkilz's Avatar
United States
2077 Posts
 Posted 12/01/2015  02:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add OldSkoolMadSkilz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Am just sounding like a total idiot right now?
Yes. Let's go way out on a limb and say that the main part of the nickel was cupronickel alloy and the part under the date was pure copper (which it isn't). The coefficient of expansion for copper is 0.0000093/degreeF and cupronickel is 0.0000090. So the difference is 0.0000003/degreeF. A nickel is about 1/16 inch thick. So to raise the date 0.001 inches, you'd need to heat it to 53,000 degrees.

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Conder101's Avatar
United States
17884 Posts
 Posted 12/01/2015  11:15 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
So to raise the date 0.001 inches, you'd need to heat it to 53,000 degrees.

And long before it reached that point it would be a liquid puddle of metal.
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garys64wildcat's Avatar
United States
593 Posts
 Posted 12/01/2015  12:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add garys64wildcat to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My Dad had a Cafe that burnt down and pinball machines that were full of mostly Buffalos and I had these clumps all melted together and warped and I broke a few loose, and I doubt it was 53000 degrees.

The rest went to the bank and they paid us for them
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MichioKaku's Avatar
United States
374 Posts
 Posted 12/01/2015  2:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MichioKaku to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ok...never mind then...
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