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Straits Settlements 5 Cents 1877

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Pillar of the Community

Singapore
631 Posts
 Posted 12/13/2015  06:01 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Numister to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Picked up this toned beauty recently, but upon closer inspection I became doubtful of its authenticity. Anybody with good knowledge on Straits Settlement coins can help ?



Straits-Settlements-5-Cents-1877

Straits-Settlements-5-Cents-1877
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sel_69l's Avatar
Australia
21786 Posts
 Posted 12/13/2015  07:08 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I can understand your reason for doubt: I have been shown a couple of quite excellent fakes of this type by a coin dealer, who really knows his stuff.
I haven't got the specialist skill or experience to pick this one, unfortuately.
Why do you doubt it?

It looks OK to me. I have to admit defeat someties, and this is one of those times.
Pillar of the Community
Singapore
631 Posts
 Posted 12/13/2015  08:13 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Numister to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If you look at the A in "Straits" do you notice something or the lack thereof ?
Valued Member
United States
143 Posts
 Posted 12/13/2015  10:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Stan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Looks weird: http://www.NGCcoin.com/price-guide/...-duid-101178

The lack of a line in the "A" is concerning. However, the observe has the proper "A". I dunno.
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jdmern's Avatar
United States
1949 Posts
 Posted 12/13/2015  10:54 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jdmern to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting piece.

I have my concerns:

Here are some links to examples sold in major auction houses

http://coins.ha.com/itm/straits-set...Lot=1x=0&y=0

http://www.acsearch.info/image.html?id=1696068

http://www.acsearch.info/image.html?id=977341

http://www.acsearch.info/image.html?id=794240

http://www.acsearch.info/image.html?id=828335



Besides the issue with the 'A', the date does not seem to be correct in comparing with other genuine examples...

Did the coin come from a very reputable dealer or auction house?

What is throwing me a bit is the die crack along the reverse legend and the appearance of repunching in the date?

Regardless, I think this the type of coin that should be sent to PCGS or NGC (In addition to authentication,if genuine, this looks mid MS grades and worth many thousands)
Pillar of the Community
Singapore
631 Posts
 Posted 12/15/2015  03:58 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Numister to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Any possibility they could have reused die plates from previous years ? I've seen other years with the missing line in A too.
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jdmern's Avatar
United States
1949 Posts
 Posted 12/15/2015  4:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jdmern to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Any possibility they could have reused die plates from previous years ? I've seen other years with the missing line in A too.


This is a tricky piece. It looks like there is a die crack from the R-T in Straits? If I could find another 1877 with that variety, then nothing would jump out at me... You would think that such a major variety would have been recognized earlier on though... Almost looks like the 1872-H Canada 50 Cent with the inverted V instead of A...

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paxbrit's Avatar
United States
992 Posts
 Posted 03/06/2016  10:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add paxbrit to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The lettering is not consistent is serif or rotation, check it carefully. The missing crossbar in the 'A' of 'Straits', and the first 'S' of 'Settlements' is slightly different in spacing, and first and second 'E' in 'Settlements' is different. The two '7's are a bit funky.

The 'C' in 'Cents' is rotated or cocked.

The other dead giveaway could be the price you paid for it. Catalog is $4,800 in my not-up-to-date Krause.
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sel_69l's Avatar
Australia
21786 Posts
 Posted 03/07/2016  01:20 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
For a potential value that a genuine coin of this ilk has, due diligence has to be done: (provenance)
Where did it come from?
Pillar of the Community
Singapore
631 Posts
 Posted 03/07/2016  03:46 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Numister to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I got it from a LCS, the grading just came back, it's as fake as a Nigerian astronaut in space.

Lesson learnt, if it's too good to be true, it probably is, worse thing is I trusted my LCS implicitly. What a .
Edited by Numister
03/07/2016 03:47 am
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paxbrit's Avatar
United States
992 Posts
 Posted 03/08/2016  8:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add paxbrit to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Let us know how you make out with the shop.
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sel_69l's Avatar
Australia
21786 Posts
 Posted 03/09/2016  12:35 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Plus and minus with fakes such as these.

Destroy it, and take it completely out of the circulation of collectors, so thet they cannot be defrauded.

Keep it, and display it widely such as happened here on the CCF for us all to see, and learn how to identify dangerous fakes.
Pillar of the Community
Singapore
631 Posts
 Posted 10/13/2016  11:57 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Numister to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I highly suspect my high grade fake has come from the same source as this pic I found on ebay, both coins are UNC and have the same orangey tone. Seller is from SG, China. Singapore is not in China.

Straits-Settlements-5-Cents-1877
Edited by Numister
10/13/2016 11:58 am
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sel_69l's Avatar
Australia
21786 Posts
 Posted 10/13/2016  6:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well worth keeping, if it IS indeed a fake.
Examine it closely for yourself to learn and know what to look for with such high quality fakes.

I have a specialist fake collection for just such a reason.

Don't get too 'dirty' with your local LCS, but show it to him anyway. It would have been very easy to be deceived with this coin; he should be very appreciative to learn from it himself.
If I was the coin dealer I would have bought it back, and kept it in my own reference collection of fake coins. I would have been happy to educate my customers with it, saying:
"Not for sale".
That is one way a LCS can build trust with his customers.


You must remember that thousands of coins pass through coin dealers every year, and that leaves not much time to examine every coin very closely. Even the best of professional coin dealers have to admit that they can be occasionally (although very rarely, fortunately) deceived by a high quality fake coin. The same could be said for those who slab coins; that is why they employ specialists for the various coin types.

Your local coin dealer is forced to be a generalist by the very nature of his business to enlarge his customer base, and therefore cannot be a specialist in all areas of numismatics.
Pillar of the Community
Singapore
631 Posts
 Posted 10/13/2016  10:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Numister to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I spoke to fellow collectors and other LCSs about this incident, they told me that this LCS has had similar run-ins in the past.

Which makes me believe my LCS knew it was a high grade fake but sold it to me anyway.
New Member
Malaysia
4 Posts
 Posted 11/14/2016  11:02 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add beachstarss to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have the original piece of this straits 1877, 5 cents. They use my coin as sample to create fake coin. NGC also sent me an email on this issue by last year.
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