Coin Community Family of Web Sites Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors
Specializing in Modern Numismatics 300,000 items to help build your collection! Shop for APMEX Bullion on eBay!Vancouvers #1 Coin and Paper Money Dealer Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors Royal Canadian Mint products, Canadian, Polish, American, and world coins and banknotes. Coin, Banknote and Medal Collectors's Online Mall








Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?


This page may contain links that result in small commissions to keep this free site up and running.

Welcome Guest! Registering and/or logging in will remove the anchor (bottom) ads. It's Free!

Swamperbob - 8 Reale Pics

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 4 / Views: 3,087Next Topic  
Valued Member
ASUTodd's Avatar
United States
75 Posts
 Posted 01/28/2008  7:33 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add ASUTodd to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Ok, I finally got some pics of the 8 Reale I spoke of in my previous posts. This one has a nice big chop mark right in the middle and then a small one on the edge. The weight is 25.1 grams (25.2 depending on the scale) and is approximately 39mm. The color of the coin is what concerns me. I know it isn't copper, well doesn't appear to be, but the coloring just looks off to be silver. The edges of the coin had the circle square design on them. The weight is a bit under what a 8 Reale should be but with being worn like it is and with a chunk missing it appears to be right on the mark for weight. The diameter is close to being correct and when I compare it to my known counterfeit I can see a uniformity in the overall thickness that isn't there in the counterfeit. I wish I could get better pics but these will have to do for now. Let me know your thoughts on whether you think this one is counterfeit or not. Either way I am glad to have it in my collection. Thanks!
Todd
Swamperbob---8-Reale-Pics
Swamperbob---8-Reale-Pics
Swamperbob---8-Reale-Pics
Swamperbob---8-Reale-Pics
Swamperbob---8-Reale-Pics
Edited by ASUTodd
01/28/2008 7:35 pm
Pillar of the Community
swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 01/30/2008  12:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
ASUTodd - That is a Fantastic circulating contemporary counterfeit. It is not one of the cheap (worthless) Chinese coins. It shares a lot of similarities to the Riddell # 50 and it may be a closely related issue - perhaps made by the same group of forgers. There is a very close match with the lions on the reverse and the King has the same "odd" smirk on his face. I can not see clearly but does it read CAROLUS IV? Establishing a confirmed link would make the coin very valuable indeed. The ultimate method is an XRF test to compare impurities in the metal with known examples of the Riddell # 50.

The color is perfect in my opinion for a contemporary counterfeit high in copper content. Many of these locally produced copies were 10-60% silver alloyed with copper. They tend to GREEN with age and that is what I see here. The more copper the more green/yellow it gets

The weight is a bit LOW even with the chop (which is more like a cancellation cut in my opinion) and the wear. There is almost no way a coin in this condition should ever go under 25.5 grams (if it was real). The Riddell #50 was a full weight coin 27.0 grams but was only 0.150 fine silver which means it is very thick when compared to an original. That may be why it "feels" right. That hefty feeling was just what the forgers were shooting for. They also added a decent colonial edge because they knew a plain edge would get caught easily when coins were stacked.

As far as value goes, I would likely bid in the $150 to $200 range for a coin like this if the link to the Riddell # 50 can be established. The Portrait 8Rs listed in Riddell are far scarcer than the Cap and Rays and a new related variety is especially interesting.

Good hunting guy - congratulations on a super find!
Pillar of the Community
United States
1666 Posts
 Posted 01/30/2008  2:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Numismat to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
In this case it looks like the fonts and matrix are correct, it is indeed a good fake. I would have surely been fooled just by looking at it.
Valued Member
ASUTodd's Avatar
United States
75 Posts
 Posted 01/30/2008  9:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ASUTodd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well I got a decent deal on the coin, I figured it was fake when I bought it, but I really wanted it. It's amazing the 2 8 Reales I bought were fakes but the 2 reale from the same place was genuine. I got them all for well under the price of one. I'm quite please. Bob, I would love to send you these two coins to look at and "study" if you would like but I don't have enough post yet for a pm and I can't post my email in a message because the admins go crazy and delete it and warn me. I will try to get you a message through Twokopeiki (Roman) as far as my email goes. I would love to be able to attribute this to Ridell #50 (If I knew what that was) so I figured you would be a better authority on this than I would be...unless you can suggest someone else that may want to look at both of the coins I have. Either way I appreciate the input, thanks!
Todd
Pillar of the Community
swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 01/30/2008  11:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Todd - I would have no problem attempting to make the attribution based on a direct comparison. I could also like to take a series of pictures and do a Specific Gravity to see if it matches the Riddell # 50.

"Riddell" refers to a book published in 1845 that illustrates all of the Counterfeit and real dollar and half dollar coins found in circulation in New Orleans between 1839 and 1844. The full title is "Monograph of the Silver Dollar, Good and Bad". The author was Dr. John Leonard Riddell who was melter and refiner at the New Orleans mint. He was also a professor at a local college. But his job at the mint was to melt and refine silver from worn coins and other foreign coins sent to the mint to be used to produce US silver coinage. He indicated in the book that he was melting an average of $ 50,000 worth of Mexican coins PER MONTH for this purpose.

In 1839, his first year on the job, he discovered that batches of silver were running on average at least 5% short on silver - after he adjusted for wear. He suspected that counterfeits were mixed into the coin batches. So he began a systematic search. His book is the result of his research. He lists 282 different counterfeit 8Rs and has a picture of each cast from type metal. They are very accurate pictures and capture great detail. This is the only contemporary work on forgery that illustrates the coins being forged in such large numbers. The results of his work also indicated that 90% of all coins circulating in New Orleans were Spanish American and that counterfeit rates varied from 1 in 10 to 1 in 100 coins. Either way that is a huge number of foreign forgeries that were being used in the US.

My hope is to expand his work to cover the entire interval during which 8Rs were legal tender in the US.



  Previous TopicReplies: 4 / Views: 3,087Next Topic  

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.



    




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Forums
It took 0.23 seconds to rattle this change. Forums