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 Replies: 13 / Views: 1,245 |
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Valued Member
United States
411 Posts |
A few years ago, I began collecting coins seriously. I had collected coins when I was a kid, but had drifted away. Buying coins these days is a completely different experience than buying coins when I was a kid, not just because the hobby is different, but because I'm different - I have more money than I had when I was 10, for instance  . Also, since I was a kid, almost every scarce to rare coin in the United States has been slabbed. This wasn't true even 5 years ago, but it's true now. Now I know you won't believe this, but there are some people out there who want to rip me off!  It's not as easy to do that as it was a few years ago, but these guys are very clever, and often one step ahead of the game. NOBODY should be shamed by "old-time collectors" into learning lessons "the hard way" because of an ideological preference for raw coins and albums. Collecting shouldn't be an obstacle course. (Here's how you can tell ideology from "one man's opinion": Ideologues believe they're the only ones doing it right, and they pretend to "feel sorry" for how stupid everyone else is.) EXAMPLES FROM LIFE: Example 1: My Type set: Even if I had a lifetime to study every series and every sub type, there would just not be enough money or time for me to aggregate sufficient experience to justify buying raw coins for that set. Why? Because experience can only be truly gained by handling lots of coins. I live in NYC, I am not a professional coin dealer, and don't have a car. Every month or so, a Famous Auction House in NYC has an auction, and pretty much anybody who wants to can view the lots. I love doing that. That is no doubt the only way I could ever hold a Chain cent in my hand, for example. But 99.99% of those coins are completely out of reach. So, most of the coins I buy are from photos, either ebay, Heritage or some other online coin dealers. This is not ideal, but it's the best I can do. And I do enjoy it. So I need some guarantee that a coin I pay $300 for is OBJECTIVELY graded. Example 2: I have completed an MS complete set of Peace dollars. All are in PCGS or NGC slabs. The difference in price for a 1928-S Peace dollar from MS64 to MS65 is approximately $17,000 (1.6K - 18.5K). On a check that's "SEVENTEEN THOUSAND DOLLARS." The difference in surface preservation for these two grades is far less. My 64 is very close to a 65. I wouldn't want to have paid the estimated $18,500 for a 65, only to find out that, in the professional opinion of 4 respected professional grading service, it's a 64. And this is a series I feel very comfortable with grading myself. Example 3. I have completed a circ/uncirc set of Walkers with only four of the coins in slabs, the rest raw and in an album of my own design. Now, suppose I decide to liquidate that set so I'll have money to put into my type set. If I had all those very same coins in NGC or PCGS or even ANACS slabs, I'd get more money for them because I'd have a much wider pool of potential buyers. Why? Because there are a lot of people out there who collect coins who are not as experienced as Q. David Bowers. Even though I am as certain as certain can be that my grades are correct, I will get more for them if they are in slabs. There's an article in The Numismatist issue I just received yesterday, about the difference between "collectors" and "investors." The bottom line is, best to be both. That is, have the eye and heart of a collector, and the purse strings of an investor. The best way to manage the purse strings is to buy slabbed coins. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts |
1. Move to Illinois. Around me there are a minimum of 3 coin shows a Month. I've seen practically every type and grade of coin possible there. Auction houses are usually rip offs. Way to many ringers in the audiences.
2. Your paying to much. Move to Illinois. Your motives are excessively into the prices for buying and selling. You sound more like a dealer than a collector. For sure on your way to Ulcer heaven.
3. Same as 2.
As to investor/collector. One is a collector. The other is a dealer. Yes there are some investers but they usually become dealers. If you were a serious collector you would be more concerned about the coins and not the selling abilities.
My suggestion is life is to short. Enjoy the hobby and forget the prices or become a dealer.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1984 Posts |
I couldn't disagree with most of your post more, but to each his own approach.
In my life I've seen 4 graders get together and be completely and utterly (in your opinion, objectively) wrong on many occasions. A safety net is nice, but my education on how to grade and my reward/risk on raw coins has paid off for me more than relying on the subjective opinions of any 'professional' coin grader.
Edited by halfabustisbetter
01/29/2008 3:50 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5318 Posts |
You have some valid points. Given how volatile the market has become between minute grading differences on some series--and the importance attributed to top-tier grading, both collectors and investors need to be aware if they're going that route. Slabbed coins may offer a cushion of security when buying online. That is--if you can tell the difference between a genuine and forged slab when the knock-offs hit the market en masse. I think it's best that collectors/investors can make good judgements without a slab. I think the current importance put on TPG grading could be due to a misplaced focus on perceived "investment potential" versus collector demand. I suspect that investor demand may have superceded collector's interest in some series, pushing pricing differentials to ridiculous heights. I can't exactly say how this will play out, but I suspect that in the end the true collector will set demand, which could severely adjust some prices--whether slabbed or not. Just my .02 (imo) Edited by KurtS
01/29/2008 3:59 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts |
halfabustisbetter has my vote. I have no slabs, have bought some but broke all out. TPG's are growing as fast as VHS stores did when they first came out. Many are just a bunch of people making money with less knowledge about coins than kids in a playground. I've seen way to may coins in slabs that are actually comical as to what they are SUPPOSED to be. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1083 Posts |
To each his own. I am always glad when the value of my coins goes up, but I am primarily a collector. A collector takes his time and looks at many coins and grades, learns what to look for before making a buy. I filled a type set over time and I looked at each type many times until I was sure of the grading for each one, before making a buy. It is not impossible to do, even on-line. Use Heritage Auctions database and look at each type. They are all slabbed. Also, as Carl says visit some coin shows and look closely at the offerings.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12437 Posts |
quote:
Every month or so, a Famous Auction House in NYC has an auction, and pretty much anybody who wants to can view the lots.
Were you the person that got burned on a Peace dollar purchase from Stack's a couple years ago? I seem to remember that it was a 1928 or 1934S Peace that was purchased raw as a MS63/64(Choice BU I believe was the auction description per Stack's) but turned out to be AU. If that wasn't you, it was someone else on this board. Edited by biokemist6
01/29/2008 4:00 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
628 Posts |
I started recently as a collector. I soon realized I didn't have enough money to continue buying at the rate I was buying. So..... I started buying raw or under rated slabbed coins and submitting to PCGS. At least in my neck of the woods PCGS slabbed are the easiest to sell and I'd say respected by most. As I went through this process I learned a lot about grading ( I got burned two or three times ). I'm now a good grader of the coins I am interested in, at least by PCGS standards, in my opinion. I don't automatically trust any slabbed coin grade. It looks to me that there are variations of standards within grades, some MS64s look better than others, but for the most part fit within the MS64 range. Personal preference plays a big role here. I think this is where most of the subjective/objective argument comes from. Listen to me! What a blow-hard! I don't mean to sound like an expert, I am not. I have a lot to learn and enjoy learning most of all. I think this forum is fantastic. |
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Valued Member
 United States
411 Posts |
Hi. Yes biokemist6, I am the one who purchased a raw 1928 Peace dollar described as "Very Choice B.U." from Stack's 2006 Americana sale. I sent it in for grading to PCGS and it came back AU58.  I cracked it out and submitted it to NGC. It came back MS61. I sold the coin back to Stack's last month - they were very gracious about it and gave me what I paid - and used the proceeds (plus a little more) to buy a 63 (PCGS) from a dealer friend in OHIO who had saved it for me. As to the topic, we've had this conversation before. I brought it up because of the piece in the Numismatist made me think how much a lot of people feel like the hobby has been taken over by these companies and the bottomless depths of their greed, and how also, in not so long, virtually every desirable collectors coin will be in a slab anyway. And just carl: you said you had slabbed coins and you had them cracked out - what method of cracking do you use? I've got a tool that's a hybrid of pliers and shears, that I use. Most slabs crack fine with this thing, but it's amazing how hard NGC holders are to crack and I'd like to know if you or anyone has any tips. (maybe that's another topic?) oh, and get a car and move to Illinois?  Uh... no thanks.  |
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Valued Member
United States
397 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1231 Posts |
"... in not so long, virtually every desirable collectors coin will be in a slab anyway."
I have to disagree with this statement. There are many collectors out there that still have some fantastic coins that are not slabbed. And there always will be. It all depends on what someone considers 'desirable'. Alot of people confuse desirable with worth a fortune. Just because a coin is worth $100,000 doesn't always make it desirable to everyone.
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Valued Member
United States
101 Posts |
As far as ebay goes, there are many raw coin auctions out there. Some pictures are illegible and lose my interest right away. It's just not worth slabbing high production or low grade coins unless of course they are low production. None of us are going to get out of life alive so go for what you want and leave for the next jerk that only looks at the money.. About every fifth auction is a heritage auction on ebay. I have seen Morgans that are EF being auctioned as BU raw by dealers with over 2000 auctions and 100% feedback. It's your money and you are your own best defense. Ignorance may be bliss but it can be very expensive. Enjoy life, you only get one ride. |
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Valued Member
United States
402 Posts |
All raw coins are not problem coins just like all slab coins are not problem free. When I get ready to sell, I'll send my coins to a TPG until then I'll keep them raw, keep the POP's low and let the Registry people have all the fun.  Edited by 50cents
01/29/2008 11:42 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1247 Posts |
You mentioned ideology and yet the only difference between someone who becomes the function of the State and someone who becomes the function of coin grading, is scale. The results are the same--slavery.
Grading used to a simple tool that was the *function* of coin collecting. Now with slabs, 11 Unc grades, market grading, TPGs, re-submissions for the lotto upgrade, stickers, (do we have bows and ribbons yet?) *coin collecting has become the function of grading.*
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Replies: 13 / Views: 1,245 |
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Posted 01/29/2008 3:01 pm
