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1772 Machin Mills - Is There Any Way This Could Be Real?

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edweather's Avatar
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7375 Posts
 Posted 01/05/2016  1:51 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add edweather to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I can't find any variety that matches. This would be incredibly rare and valuable if real, right? By lack of bidders probably obvious fake to those in the know.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/331746484305
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JimNWLincoln's Avatar
United States
911 Posts
 Posted 01/05/2016  2:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JimNWLincoln to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There are also several others for auction:
1772 Revolutionary War Era George III Colonial Halfpenny with a starting bid of $0.99

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1772-Revolu...AOSwLN5Wixk5

Also found several Halfpenny for sale on the no-no site but none date 1772 after just a quick search
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SCDave's Avatar
United States
118 Posts
 Posted 01/05/2016  2:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SCDave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It looks real enough to me but I don't believe it's a Machins Mill and is more likely an ordinary 1772 British 1/2 penny. Still a good looking piece compared to the ones I've dug from the ground
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colonialjohn's Avatar
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1757 Posts
 Posted 01/05/2016  2:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Machins Mills series was a series originally developed by Bob Vlack and others in his generation in terms of its creation and build-up. Its original listing of varieties was done by punch linking, categorizing certain traits like unfimbriated cross-bars (i.e., solid crossbars) and most importantly die linking to U.S. Colonial State Coppers which IMO is the only feasible method as I wrote in my Broken A Letter Punch paper for the ANS sometime in the 1990's.
With time the idea of categorizing varieties with punch linking due to the hub matrix principle became unfounded (i.e., which is why a lot of the Breen U.S. Colonial attributions are nonsense) and a lot of the earlier varieties away from the central core period (i.e., specifically 1787/1788 issues) became speculative in my opinion as to whether they we ever produced in Machins Mills. You need to understand something of Machins Mills pieces - there is NO EVIDENCE directly that these were EVER produced in Newburgh, NY. Just like the GNL Class 1 CC8R at The Royal Mint, the Canadian Blacksmiths in Lower Canada, etc ... we work on probabilities based on experience and any indirect evidence which comes forth to us in our studies. Since the 1787/1788 types are die linked to U.S. Colonial State Coppers (i.e., like Vermonts and Connecticut's) these have a higher probability of being produced in Newburgh, NY. Certain non-1787/1788 issues due to prices, Red Book inclusion based on tradition, etc. simply are considered Machins Mills pieces just because several notable numismatist's three decades ago said they were - one of the problems with contemporary circulating counterfeits (CCC) is the lack of written evidence and with that - assumptions, gut feelings, experience and probabilities of origin then enter the equation.
So to answer your questions what of this 1772 issue? This is simply a seller taking a legitimate English CCC and since its similar IN APPEARANCE to one of these so-called Machins Mills pieces is also calling this piece American Made rather than what it really is a British import CCC. A $10 coin. IMO - no harm - no foul.
Some seasoned Colonial Collectors will continue to honor these Vlack listings for all these dates and varieties and some people's pocketbooks are forced to comply - be that as it may.
Unfortunately - Material Analysis can not yet differentiate between American made colonial coppers and British imports for copper in the 18thC. Lead Isotopic Analysis has shown some promise but we are easily around 50 years away from this type of differentiation.
Do I believe the 1787/1788's are American - YES with a high probability factor. Other dated Vlack varieties - NO (low probability). IMO.
See my new book coming out in late 2016 on various CCCs with much information on Material Analysis. Year by year Ed - we are getting better however - politics, money, traditional values, etc. always tend to TWIST advancements in this field of CCC's - the usual ...

JPL
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vermontensium's Avatar
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16679 Posts
 Posted 01/05/2016  2:55 pm  Show Profile   Check vermontensium's eBay Listings Check vermontensium's eCrater Listings Bookmark this reply Add vermontensium to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Agree. This is an ordinary Regal issue..not Machins Mills. Many ebay sellers pass these off as M M issues when they simply are not.
swcoin.ecrater.com
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edweather's Avatar
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7375 Posts
 Posted 01/05/2016  4:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add edweather to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You all nailed it. Thanks. colonialjohn, your knowledge on the subject is impressive, and I'm going to study your post when I have a few minutes. Jim, yeah, .99 is more like it, and a correct identification in the listing. I knew something was funny.
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EFLargeCents's Avatar
United States
1304 Posts
 Posted 01/05/2016  4:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add EFLargeCents to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply


Regal British Halfpenny. Doesn't appear to be a CC/evasion either. It does appear to be harshly cleaned.
Edited by EFLargeCents
01/05/2016 4:27 pm
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ExoGuy's Avatar
United States
4416 Posts
 Posted 01/05/2016  5:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ExoGuy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the interesting and most informative summary, ColonialJohn! Still in all, it's a most attractive, colonial era copper that I've yet to see the like of for but $10.
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colonialjohn's Avatar
United States
1757 Posts
 Posted 01/05/2016  6:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Tough to say if regal or CCC without a given weight as some GIII English 1/2d w/in the 1770-1775 era come close to looking like regal. Could be a 50/50 flip - although in the end its a PASS - anyway. True I would lean more to regal if I had to choose ...

JPL
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Imthealphaomega's Avatar
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3210 Posts
 Posted 01/05/2016  7:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Imthealphaomega to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I actually know quite a bit about Machin Mill since I live 5 minutes away from the site. I have seen legitimate examples from a coin dealer who lives in Newburgh like myself and they are very rare. Here is a quick link. I actually live in Orange Lake, who would have thought my area would come up here. Weird.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orang...ke,_New_York
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colonialjohn's Avatar
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1757 Posts
 Posted 01/06/2016  12:06 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A couple of years ago a collector/researcher sent me some copper specimens metal detected/unearthed at the Machin's Mills site which were recovered several decades ago. We try to determine if the copper planchets - some GIII 1/2d's and some copper blanks had any specific copper assay type trace signature compounds but nothing substantial was found. With testing there is a strong tendency from dozens of other studies I performed for American made coppers to be made with more garbage in the assay like sulfur - in particular from poor annealing operations. But so what ... its nothing you can use to determine origin from a simple XRF assay. In general British imported coppers from the late 18thC are cleaner & have less trace garbage ingredients (i.e., assays of Cu ~98-99% and S <1%) whereas like a NJ Copper could be 94% copper and have 2-3% or higher Sulfur (S) - IN GENERAL. But - for example the NJ's from Morristown, NJ as in Maris 63-s or 64-t were always made with better blank annealing operations and possibly better copper under Walter Mould as M. Hodder previously of Stacks would always say of Morristown, NJ coppers being of a better copper assay. Unquestionably correct.

Just some rambling ...

JPL
Edited by colonialjohn
01/06/2016 12:10 am
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TJsCoins's Avatar
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3229 Posts
 Posted 01/08/2016  01:52 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TJsCoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Colonialjohn, great info!
And let us know when that book is available
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